# "Comey is a leaker"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 9, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517 "2017-06-09T15:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/61 "2017-06-09T21:11:38Z")
This is a tactic that I see in use quite a bit: Was Comey’s conduct illegal? Some are questioning whether Comey broke the law when he leaked information anonymously, via a third party, to the press. It’s a slippery accusation. “Some” are questioning. Who? And what legal theory do these “some” believe might create criminal liability? That’s never said. And of course the posters that offer up such quotes are quick to disclaim any personal argument. They aren’t lawyers, they don’t know. They’re just reporting on how “some” are asking these questions. About the anonymous leaking, which certainly sounds like something might just possibly be illegal, but who knows? That’s why the question is being asked. Etc etc. It’s a campaign of implication. The answer is: NO. Not illegal. Bring cite to the law, or shush. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/62 "2017-06-09T21:37:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is a tactic that I see in use quite a bit: > > Was Comey’s conduct illegal? Some are questioning whether Comey broke the law when he leaked information anonymously, via a third party, to the press. > > It’s a slippery accusation. “Some” are questioning. Who? And what legal theory do these “some” believe might create criminal liability? > > That’s never said. And of course the posters that offer up such quotes are quick to disclaim any personal argument. They aren’t lawyers, they don’t know. They’re just reporting on how “some” are asking these questions. About the anonymous leaking, which certainly sounds like something might just possibly be illegal, but who knows? That’s why the question is being asked. Sincere question, Bricker: who’s using this tactic “quite a bit?” I don’t doubt you’ve seen it used quite a bit, but what are some examples? I may have missed something, but I find this comment as confusing as Comey did McCain’s questions - or as McCain did Comey’s answers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/63 "2017-06-09T22:36:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I can see his logic. > > If he had called the NY Times himself, his phone would have never stopped ringing all weekend. He and his wife would have been followed 24 hours a day as everyone tried to get a scoop. Leaking the memo himself would have put the focus on him and his actions, rather than on the words in the memo, and according to his testimony, it was the words in the memo that he wanted out in the public sphere, to hopefully spur the appointment of a Special Counsel (which as we all know is what happened). > > At least, that’s how I interpret his testimony and actions. YMMV. So, if his friend gives the NYT the memo and tells them “this is from Comey”, his phone isn’t going to ring off the hook? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/64 "2017-06-09T22:36:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Help me out with this one though. Comey claims the memos were not classified because they were his personal notes about his meeting with the President. But if they discussed classified information isn’t it possible those memo should be classified and who makes that determination. > FTR I don’t believe his memos are classified but it seems to me there should be more than “my personal notes” = “not classified as per me” If the memos mentioned facts, details, or plans that were already classified, then a private memo to yourself can become a classified document because of those inclusions. However, when not discussing national security, sensitive investation, or military matters in detail, it can be relatively easy to produce an unclassified version of a meeting or meetings, even if classified info was discussed in them, by not mentioning those details and being very general. It’s a very fact-dependent exercise though. Here, the mere fact that Flynn is under investigation is not a classified fact. Per Comey’s testimony, none of the conversations he had with Trump alone involved classified matters. Or if they did, he left out any details about those parts. If none of the conversations involved classified matters, it would be difficult to see how any of the memos could be considered to contain classified information. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/65 "2017-06-09T22:57:46Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Sincere question, Bricker: who’s using this tactic “quite a bit?” I don’t doubt you’ve seen it used quite a bit, but what are some examples? > > I may have missed something, but I find this comment as confusing as Comey did McCain’s questions - or as McCain did Comey’s answers. In this very thread: > [@Shodan](#): > > It has not been established if it was legal or not. Washington DC is a city and has a media that lives by leaks and hates Trump, so they are going to defend Comey whether he acted properly or not. > [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Did Comey Violate Laws In Leaking The Trump Memo?](https://jonathanturley.org/2017/06/08/did-comey-violate-laws-in-leaking-memo/) In other threads, and at the risk of being hijacky, it appears as well. In this thread the tactic is leveled against Comey, which is a minority view here at present. But in threads about Trump’s lease of the Old Post Office building and about the supposed violations of the Emoluments Clause, that same sort of vague questions-only approach is also seen. There’s a current thread in which **Czarcasm** uses the tactic to push the idea that Trump’s blocking of Twitter users violates the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/66 "2017-06-09T23:16:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, if his friend gives the NYT the memo and tells them “this is from Comey”, his phone isn’t going to ring off the hook? :dubious: [shrug] I dunno. Prolly. But the pool of reporters wouldn’t have all taken a plane trip to follow them and then camped outside their hotel room door, badgering them every time they tried to go anywhere, because by the time they realized that something important had broken, the Comeys would already be away from them. I can turn off my phone. I cannot turn off my front door. I imagine the Comeys have a similar setup. There’s a lot of 2nd guessing Dir. Comeys actions going on, and all of it comes from people who are not in the same moment as Dir. Comey was in. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes when someone does something inappropriate, you don’t react the way a movie script would have someone react. I can tell you that when you feel backed into a corner, when you feel you have a limited number of choices and none of them is particularly appealing, you may sometimes do something that seems necessary to you but to a dispassionate observer seems odd or short-sighted. [/shrug] ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/67 "2017-06-09T23:26:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Some” are questioning. Who? And what legal theory do these “some” believe might create criminal liability? > > In this very thread: > > [QUOTE=Okrahoma] > > Did Comey Violate Laws In Leaking The Trump Memo? [/QUOTE] I am sorry, did you click on that article? The author discusses both the legal theory and cites the specific law that he things Comey may have violated. What is your objection, again? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/68 "2017-06-09T23:34:04Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am sorry, did you click on that article? The author discusses both the legal theory and cites the specific law that he things Comey may have violated. What is your objection, again? What property do you think was stolen? What value do you think the property that you allege Dir. Comey stole has? More or less than the $1000 threshold in the statute you are citing? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/69 "2017-06-09T23:45:44Z")
Trump called Comey a liar. Comey proved who the liar was with his notes. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/70 "2017-06-10T00:01:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What property do you think was stolen? What value do you think the property that you allege Dir. Comey stole has? More or less than the $1000 threshold in the statute you are citing? _“Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof”_ AFAIU, Turley argues that Comey’s memos, that were created on a government computer, while sitting in a government car with a government driver, are a government record. See “record” in the cite above. It was “disposed” of by giving it to the NYT. The $1000 threshhold is for the purposes of determining the sentence, not the guilt. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/71 "2017-06-10T00:15:35Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am sorry, did you click on that article? The author discusses both the legal theory and cites the specific law that he things Comey may have violated. What is your objection, again? As mentioned above, it does seem a stretch. The statute seems aimed at actually stealing something of value, not emailing someone a copy of a memo. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/72 "2017-06-10T00:20:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As mentioned above, it does seem a stretch. The statute seems aimed at actually stealing something of value, not emailing someone a copy of a memo. It might be a stretch, but the clear reading of the statute (instead of divining of what it “seems aimed at”) supports the proposition. And anyway, Bricker’s objection was 1._“Some” are questioning. Who?_ - the answer is the author of that article, who is AFAIU qualified to give legal opinions. 1. _what legal theory do these “some” believe might create criminal liability?_ - answered. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/73 "2017-06-10T00:24:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As mentioned above, it does seem a stretch. The statute seems aimed at actually stealing something of value, not emailing someone a copy of a memo. Not that I think Comey is a criminal, but it would be hard to argue that Comey’s memos have no value. On the open market, I suspect they would fetch 6 figures, easily. And of course there is an “or” before “thing of value”, not an “and”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/74 "2017-06-10T00:25:37Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > _“Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof”_ > > AFAIU, Turley argues that Comey’s memos, that were created on a government computer, while sitting in a government car with a government driver, are a government record. See “record” in the cite above. It was “disposed” of by giving it to the NYT. > > The $1000 threshhold is for the purposes of determining the sentence, not the guilt. I said nothing about determining guilt. Did Dir. Comey physically hand the memo to this guy? Did he mail him a memo? And what value do you think this allegedly “disposed” “record” had? What do you base that valuation estimate on? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/75 "2017-06-10T00:30:43Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > It might be a stretch, but the clear reading of the statute (instead of divining of what it “seems aimed at”) supports the proposition. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not that I think Comey is a criminal, but it would be hard to argue that Comey’s memos have no value. On the open market, I suspect they would fetch 6 figures, easily. And of course there is an “or” before “thing of value”, not an “and”. I think we can all be certain that Comey did not actually physically remove anything and give it to someone. If you guys think that statute covers CC’ing an attachment, well that ain’t the plain language interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/76 "2017-06-10T00:48:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I said nothing about determining guilt. > > Did Dir. Comey physically hand the memo to this guy? Did he mail him a memo? > > And what value do you think this allegedly “disposed” “record” had? What do you base that valuation estimate on? As I said, the valuation, in the law, is not for determining whether the crime has occurred. That is irrespective of the valuation. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/77 "2017-06-10T00:49:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think we can all be certain that Comey did not actually physically remove anything and give it to someone. If you guys think that statute covers CC’ing an attachment, well that ain’t the plain language interpretation. Where are you seeing the restriction for only “physically removing” anything in that law? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/78 "2017-06-10T01:05:56Z")
Two ways to look at 641: (1) the physical document. The “government record”. Comey says it’s not because it’s his personal recollection recorded (i.e. Not govt property). But he also made it on gov’t computers using gov’t resources. But let’s just say it’s a govt record. There’s no indication the govt still doesn’t have the physical record. Comey said he gave it to the special prosecutor. What was leaked to the NYT, as I said above, was the contents of the documents. (2) the information contained in the physical document. Ie, “Thing of value”. Comey did cause to leak the information. However, it has to have financial value (per case law) to fall under 641. There’s nothing here to indicate this conversation is inherently valuable to the govt and I’ve seen no legit argument that it would. It’s an unclassified conversation. It’s not for instance, information pertaining to the location of soviet nuclear missles, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/79 "2017-06-10T01:07:30Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > _“Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof”_ > > AFAIU, Turley argues that Comey’s memos, that were created on a government computer, while sitting in a government car with a government driver, are a government record. See “record” in the cite above. It was “disposed” of by giving it to the NYT. “Disposed” in this context clearly refers to destroying or otherwise depriving the government of a record or thing of value. Comey giving a statement that summarizes his memos to a friend who then read it to a reporter does not constitute disposing of any government record. Comey’s testimony made clear that he gave the memos themselves to Bob Mueller. So, the memos have not been disposed of and still exist. Conveyed would be the word that better fits your proposed use. Again, though, Comey’s actions do not constitute conveying a government record because what he gave to his friend were not the memos themselves and the actual memos are still in possession of the government. It is also very much in question whether the private memos are even an official record that could be considered government property since they while they may have been made using government computers and possibly on government time, that does not automatically make them government records or government property. Nearly all government agencies have policies that permit limited personal use of government computers with the caveat that information stored on or obtained through government computers are subject to monitoring and possible search. The memos were not for any official purpose relating to Comey’s duties and instead merely memorialized what was said for his own personal use and purpose. It is clear they are government records now because they are documents that are relevant to an investigation and have been transferred to government custody via Bob Mueller. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517/80 "2017-06-10T01:12:01Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > As I said, the valuation, in the law, is not for determining whether the crime has occurred. That is irrespective of the valuation. Why will you not answer the questions? I have not asked about nor talked about determining guilt, yet you continue to try and use it, somehow, to deflect. Here are my questions again: > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I said nothing about determining guilt. > > Did Dir. Comey physically hand the memo to this guy? Did he mail him a memo? > > And what value do you think this allegedly “disposed” “record” had? What do you base that valuation estimate on? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-is-a-leaker/788517.md?page=5)