# Comey Memo: Trump Told Him - Shut Down Flynn Probe **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792 "2017-05-16T21:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/821 "2017-06-15T14:40:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But there could be tons about the investigation we don’t know about. It’s only a good talking point if one presumes that pretty much everything about Mueller’s investigation is already public knowledge, which to me is a pretty silly presumption. I don’t think that addresses my point, and hence have nothing further to add. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Depends what legal scholars you listen to. I’ve heard other scholars say that the president can tell the FBI “let’s lay off prosecution of marijuana offenses” and be within his rights but if he says “lay off prosecution of my friend” is too much even for a president. > > You may well have heard legal experts say this is not obstruction. I have heard some say that it is a textbook example. I personally see very close parallels with Watergate with Comey playing the role of Archibald Cox. Read my prior post. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/822 "2017-06-15T14:48:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think that addresses my point, and hence have nothing further to add.Read my prior post. It’s about the talking point, which is “There is no case for obstruction of justice. This point has been made by legal scholars from both sides of the aisle over and over again.” The first sentence of that requires one to believe both that the referenced legal scholars are correct, and that everything in Mueller’s investigation is public knowledge. I’m saying that’s a silly presumption, and thus why I disagree with you about it being a good talking point. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/823 "2017-06-15T14:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps;20280000/] Read my prior post. [/QUOTE] The one that says " because he is the ultimate authority over the DOJ and under the law can do all these things. If this is correct, then investigating the facts to determine whether or not Trump ordered the Flynn investigation shut down or why he fired Comey is legally moot." ? If so, I disagree. A president can fire an FBI director for no reason, but he cannot do it for the purpose of shutting down an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/824 "2017-06-15T15:03:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s about the talking point, which is “There is no case for obstruction of justice. This point has been made by legal scholars from both sides of the aisle over and over again.” > > The first sentence of that requires one to believe both that the referenced legal scholars are correct, and that everything in Mueller’s investigation is public knowledge. I’m saying that’s a silly presumption, and thus why I disagree with you about it being a good talking point. All it requires is that there be a significant difference between an investigation of known allegations of obstruction of justice and an investigation of possible unknown theoretical obstruction. As long as you grant that the difference matters, then pointing out that it’s not the first is an excellent talking point, even if people may rise up to claim that you never know if it might be the second. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The one that says " because he is the ultimate authority over the DOJ and under the law can do all these things. If this is correct, then investigating the facts to determine whether or not Trump ordered the Flynn investigation shut down or why he fired Comey is legally moot." ? > > If so, I disagree. A president can fire an FBI director for no reason, but he cannot do it for the purpose of shutting down an investigation. In that same post I also pointed out that other legal experts disagree. Therefore your subsequent post in which you asserted at greater length that other legal experts disagree was nothing new. As there are legal experts on both sides of this issue, your new assertion here as to your own position on this issue does not carry much weight, WADR. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/825 "2017-06-15T15:04:52Z")
I happen to think you went shopping for a talking head on television that supports your point of view, whereas my talking heads are paragons of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/826 "2017-06-15T15:08:17Z")
That’s generally the case, isn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/827 "2017-06-15T15:18:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I suspect you may have misunderstood that talking point. > > I believe they’re not saying here that there’s not enough “evidence” to prove that Trump obstructed justice. That’s not a matter for “legal scholars”. What they’re saying is that various legal scholars (e.g. Dershowitz et al) have asserted that even if Trump deliberately ordered various Russia investigations closed down or fired people for failing to do so, that does not constitute “obstruction of justice”, because he is the ultimate authority over the DOJ and under the law can do all these things. Since I quoted the entire talking point, you’re reading in a metric shitload of stuff that isn’t in it. Sure, you _could_ be right, but there’s no reason to see that as the default. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/828 "2017-06-15T15:28:01Z")
[AARRGGHH](http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab72/EveOz/exploding_head.jpg)! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/829 "2017-06-15T15:28:47Z")
I know it’s a partisan site, but it avoids a WSJ paywall. [From Politicus USA:](http://www.politicususa.com/2017/06/15/paper-trail-impeachment-grows-nsa-memo-shows-trump-investigation-interference.html) > [@](#): > > “The special counsel also plans to interview Rick Ledgett, who recently retired as the deputy director of the NSA, the person added. While Mr. Ledgett was still in office, he wrote a memo documenting a phone call that Mr. Rogers had with Mr. Trump, according to people familiar with the matter. During the call, the president questioned the veracity of the intelligence community’s judgment that Russia had interfered with the election and tried to persuade Mr. Rogers to say there was no evidence of collusion between his campaign and Russian officials, they said.” > [@](#): > > The case for obstruction of justice isn’t Comey versus Trump. It is Trump versus Comey’s testimony, Comey memos, intelligence community witnesses, and an NSA memo. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/830 "2017-06-15T15:54:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > “tried to persuade Mr. Rogers to say there was no evidence of collusion between his campaign and Russian officials” How dare he! Is there evidence? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/831 "2017-06-15T15:57:32Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > How dare he! Is there evidence? Pretend there is for a moment – let’s jump ahead to the rationalization. Why was Trump (WINNING! MAGA!) correct to do this? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/832 "2017-06-15T16:02:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Pretend there is for a moment – let’s jump ahead to the rationalization. Why was Trump (WINNING! MAGA!) correct to do this? If I “pretend there is”, then Trump was wrong. Pretend there isn’t (since no one apparently has found any). Was Trump wrong to do this? Just like with Comey, and Trump knowing he was not under investigation, Trump knows there is no evidence, he sees lies about this in the press and he wants people who know those are lies to come out publicly and say that they are. What a horrible horrible person. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/833 "2017-06-15T16:09:52Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > If I “pretend there is”, then Trump was wrong. Pretend there isn’t (since no one apparently has found any). Was Trump wrong to do this? > > Just like with Comey, and Trump knowing he was not under investigation, Trump knows there is no evidence, he sees lies about this in the press and he wants people who know those are lies to come out publicly and say that they are. > > What a horrible horrible person. This requires both trust in Trump and trust that Trump knows everything that everyone in his team did. I don’t have either one. In any case, the way Trump is responding to this makes him look more guilty, not less, IMO – innocent Republican politicians would be happy to let an investigation, especially when it’s led by someone with as impeccable bipartisan and Republican credentials as Mueller, take its course. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/834 "2017-06-15T16:13:44Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > If I “pretend there is”, then Trump was wrong. Pretend there isn’t (since no one apparently has found any). Was Trump wrong to do this? > > Just like with Comey, and Trump knowing he was not under investigation, Trump knows there is no evidence, he sees lies about this in the press and he wants people who know those are lies to come out publicly and say that they are. > > What a horrible horrible person. “Trump calls the media liars” - headline from **Pot Kettle Magazine** If he knows there is no evidence he sure isn’t acting like it. He should be confident that the investigations will reveal nothing, yet he’s acting like a cornered animal lashing out and trying to throw his weight around to squash it. His actions betray his confidence in his innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/835 "2017-06-15T16:18:26Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > If he knows there is no evidence he sure isn’t acting like it. He should be confident that the investigations will reveal nothing, yet he’s acting like a cornered animal lashing out and trying to throw his weight around to squash it. His actions betray his confidence in his innocence. Of course. Trying to refute the media’s lies is “acting like a cornered animal”. Riiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/836 "2017-06-15T16:23:20Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Of course. Trying to refute the media’s lies is “acting like a cornered animal”. Riiiight. The whole world lies but the yam tells the truth. Okay, I see your point of view now. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/837 "2017-06-15T16:23:39Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Of course. Trying to refute the media’s lies is “acting like a cornered animal”. Riiiight. Sure is. Desperately trying to stop the investigation is not the move of an innocent man. Freaking out on twitter constantly is not the move of an innocent man. You are just too blinded by partisanship to admit it. That’s all that is going on here. Look at the polls on the investigations, look at his disapproval ratings. He’s losing, and the more he flails about the more he loses. Also, a liar calling someone else a liar is ridiculous. The media is reporting what has been given to them. That’s news, not lies. Just because he doesn’t like the information that is getting to them doesn’t make it lies to report it. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/838 "2017-06-15T16:26:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This requires both trust in Trump and trust that Trump knows everything that everyone in his team did. I don’t have either one. In any case, the way Trump is responding to this makes him look more guilty, not less, IMO – innocent Republican politicians would be happy to let an investigation, especially when it’s led by someone with as impeccable bipartisan and Republican credentials as Mueller, take its course. Ding! Ding! Winner! The proper response of an innocent person: please, come in, look around, take your time. Happy to assist duly appointed officers of the law in their valuable service to the nation. The response of a guilty man: Nothing to see here. Nobody home. Go away. You’re fired. I’m innocent and everybody else is lying. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/839 "2017-06-15T17:08:34Z")
Ever heard the expression “the cover-up is worse than the crime”? Happens. People do that. And with Donald Trump, with his background as an unchecked business mogul, his general ignorance of the interplay of the various branches of government and the media, and his emotional immaturity, you would expect that to happen more than with anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792/840 "2017-06-15T17:31:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Ever heard the expression “the cover-up is worse than the crime”? Happens. People do that. And with Donald Trump, with his background as an unchecked business mogul, his general ignorance of the interplay of the various branches of government and the media, and his emotional immaturity, you would expect that to happen more than with anyone else. You’re right. WTF were people _thinking_ when they voted for this bozo?? What are the Congressional _Republicans_ thinking by not dumping him for Mike Pence, yesterday if not sooner? Seriously: a) If he’s that bad, he’s got no business being President. And the ‘adults in the room’ that enable his Presidency to continue deserve the brunt of the blame for him. b) The cover-up very often _isn’t_ worse than the crime, either. But the main thing about obstruction of justice is that it _prevents the legal system from determining_ how bad the actual crime was, and that’s why it’s a crime in its own right. I’m not going to feel sorry for someone who does that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comey-memo-trump-told-him-shut-down-flynn-probe/786792.md?page=43)