# Comic Book Retcons That Were Ignored **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 21, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541 "2005-03-21T11:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/61 "2005-03-22T16:46:57Z")
Speaking of lousy John Byrne retcons, does anyone remember “Genesis”? No? Good. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/62 "2005-03-22T17:03:46Z")
JThunder: > [@](#): > > Speaking of lousy John Byrne retcons, does anyone remember “Genesis”? > > No? > > Good. Worst. Company-wide crossover. Ever. Anyone remember when DC tried re-doing Captain Marvel/Shazam right after the crisis? They made a four-issue miniseries called “Shazam: the New Beginning” which aged Billy Batson to his higher teens and placed him in San Francisco and I don’t even remember what else they changed. Don’t remember who wrote it, but some very nice Tom Mandrake art was wasted on that. Four years later, DC went back to the character’s roots with Jerry Ordway’s Power of Shazam graphic novel and series. No serious use was ever made of the miniseries version of the Shazam line of characters. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/63 "2005-03-22T17:07:37Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Yes, **Johnny** , Marvel was much more sophisticated than DC in the '60’s, when the Marvel books tried to give the characters real personalities and problems while the DC books were all unabashadly goofy. The DC books had _stories_, though, even if they were usually the same story: Superman (or whoever) gets himself into some desperate pickle, then extricates himself using some McGuffin that was oh-so-subtly planted earlier in the story and is never referenced again. The Marvel books usually consisted of four pages of character development, at which point a villain would appear, spouting quasi-Shakespearean orations, followed by an extended battle that simply ended in the baddie being beaten. And the story was always titled “And Then Came…APOCALYSE!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/64 "2005-03-22T17:08:21Z")
Well, it showed there was a market, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/65 "2005-03-22T17:59:22Z")
I just stumbled upon: [Saga of the Super-Sons](http://superman.ws/super-sons/saga/), vs. [Big Alice](http://superman.ws/super-sons/saga/?page=3) ::giggle:: ::snort:: ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/66 "2005-03-22T20:17:46Z")
The Beauty & The Beast limited series in the early 80’s. The story was about Dazzler and the Beast meeting up in LA. Dazzler is captured by and becomes part of a group of gladiator mutants. Beast rescues her and takes her to a refuge for mutants named “Heartbreak Hotel”. They fall madly in love and in the last panel, Beast hints that he is going to try and get her into the X-men. Poof, no mention of their relationship ever again. They even are both in the X-men at the same tame for a while and they don’t even seem interested in each other. No mention of the Heartbreak Hotel, either (I think). The Gladiator group is brought back, though, in a story-arc in the New Mutants. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/67 "2005-03-22T20:39:09Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > [Really?](http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=77771121444%202) Hey, Speedball’s an improvement over Ditko’s _earlier_ attempts at [creating a super-hero on his own…](http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sqlgrl.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/68 "2005-03-22T21:20:56Z")
Jeez, enough with the funny characters and stupid names, and besides, Patsy Walker, model, start of a glurgy girl’s comic is the same person as the Avenger named Hellcat. Back to the matter on hand, Spiderman appeared in Transformers, Circuit Breaker appeared in the Secret Wars, Death’s Head comes from The Marvel UK Transformers and has met The Doctor (Who?) but Transformers takes place in a different universe that the main stream marvel-verse. Why? Because Marvel said so in the letter page of Transformer, that’s why. Never mind that the goverment attempt to pose Donny Finkleberg as “The Robot Master, controller of Robots”, to keep the American public from discovering the existence of alien intelligence, and to pit the public against both Decepticon and Autobot only works in a universe where supervillians are commonplace. I can almost understand why they wouldn’t want to make TFs a part of the Canon, except that Shogun Warriors, another great toyline **is** cannon. [http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/6563/finkle.html](http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/6563/finkle.html) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/69 "2005-03-22T21:41:03Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Speaking of lousy John Byrne retcons, does anyone remember “Genesis”? > > No? > > Good. or Marvel: Lost Generation? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/70 "2005-03-22T23:54:15Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Back to the matter on hand, Spiderman appeared in Transformers, Circuit Breaker appeared in the Secret Wars, Death’s Head comes from The Marvel UK Transformers and has met The Doctor (Who?) but Transformers takes place in a different universe that the main stream marvel-verse. Why? Because Marvel said so in the letter page of Transformer, that’s why. \ Sure, but Marvel was up a creek with that one. _Transformers_ was originally intended to be a four-issue limited series (bi-monthly, no less), after which it would be gone and forgotten. That gave the writers free rein to throw in all the tie-ins to the mainstream Marvel universe, such as the name-dropping parade in issue #3 – not only does Spider-Man show up, but J. Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Nick Fury, Dum-Dum Dugan, Dazzler, and the Fantastic Four either have cameos or get mentioned. Unfortunately, either due to high sales or pressure from Hasbro or both, the decision was made to turn the limited series into an ongoing series. Rewriting the end of issue #4 was easy, but removing the already-inserted Marvel Universe cross-references was nigh impossible – hence the “Please ignore all previous references to the Marvel Universe” request in the TF lettercol. Still not sure why Circuit Breaker showed up in **Secret Wars 2,** but maybe Jim Shooter had a thing for busty blondes wearing scraps of aluminum foil… 😉 > [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Never mind that the goverment attempt to pose Donny Finkleberg as “The Robot Master, controller of Robots”, to keep the American public from discovering the existence of alien intelligence, and to pit the public against both Decepticon and Autobot only works in a universe where supervillians are commonplace. Actually, I’d argue it’s the opposite – in a universe where super-beings are common and unearthly aliens are No Big Deal (what, you think all the Avengers were Earthlings?), the presence of two more alien mechanoid factions would barely rate above a yawn. Having the “Robot Master” cover story to hide the presence of extraterrestrial beings only works in a universe where super-beings are _not_ an everyday affair. \ ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/71 "2005-03-23T00:09:02Z")
Re: Robots being comonplace: Yes, but those are usually bank roberies, or simple politics between the US, and Latveia, who is hold a national monument for ransom _again_. Not quit the same thing as giant robots a fifth the size of Godzilla(who I believe is cannon, due to Shogun Warriors) battle in the middle of the dessert outside of Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/72 "2005-03-23T01:16:10Z")
Actually, the 24-issue Godzilla series from the '70s included several Marvel Universe appearances: The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, SHIELD, and either the Defenders or the Champions (I forget which), plus the aforementioned Shogun Warriors all appeared on various Godzilla covers. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/73 "2005-03-23T13:07:11Z")
It’s not worthwhile to argue over the canon status of all of Marvel’s '70’s and '80’s licenses. In general, they were all written witihin the Marvel Universe but becaues the rights have lapsed, they’re no longer remembered as in it. I mean, whenever you hear about how Storm lost her powers once, they never mention that it was because Forge was building a weapon based on technology from ROM, Spaceknight. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/74 "2005-03-23T13:21:37Z")
It’s not worthwhile? Well, it may not be worthwhile, but I shall do so anyway. Next up, on the list, The 7th Doctor’s appearence in the Marvel universe. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/75 "2005-03-23T15:43:41Z")
What about the fact that Machine Man achieved sentience when he happened upon one of the monoliths from 2001: A Space Odyssey? (Marvel’s 2001 series was great, BTW.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/76 "2005-03-23T16:28:38Z")
Okay, have we migrated into odd seemingly in-continuity references that are subsequently ignored? Indiana Jones was a contemporary of the Justice Society, in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Kaspar\_Hauser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Kaspar\_Hauser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaspar_Hauser)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/77 "2005-03-23T16:42:04Z")
Wha? JSA is a DC property, but I thought Indiana Jones was licensed by Marvel. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/78 "2005-03-23T16:45:47Z")
> [@Kaspar Hauser](#): > > Wha? JSA is a DC property, but I thought Indiana Jones was licensed by Marvel. During the run of All-Star Squadron, there is a reference made to a Professor Jones, who if memory serves, is described as having recovered the Ark of the Covenant. Sort of an Easter Egg reference. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/79 "2005-03-23T17:05:39Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > During the run of All-Star Squadron, there is a reference made to a Professor Jones, who if memory serves, is described as having recovered the Ark of the Covenant. > > Sort of an Easter Egg reference. Addendum - it appears, on investigation, they refer to Indiana Jones by his full name there - and the Ark of the Covenant angle appears in a much later DC story. [http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/jsa/\_chron/jsachron3.html](http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/jsa/_chron/jsachron3.html) - the entry for Dec 10, 1941. Great little timeline that lines up the events depicted in various JSA stories. The Indy reference is in All-Star Squadron #6, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541/80 "2005-03-23T17:44:26Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Anyone remember when DC tried re-doing Captain Marvel/Shazam right after the crisis? They made a four-issue miniseries called “Shazam: the New Beginning” which aged Billy Batson to his higher teens and placed him in San Francisco and I don’t even remember what else they changed. Don’t remember who wrote it, but some very nice Tom Mandrake art was wasted on that. > > Four years later, DC went back to the character’s roots with Jerry Ordway’s Power of Shazam graphic novel and series. No serious use was ever made of the miniseries version of the Shazam line of characters. Well, he might not get enough exposer, but by god, he is due credit. Sure, the events of the min-series conflicted with the regular series, but appearently **most** of the events still happened. [After the Crisis, Shazam: A New Beginning (by Roy Thomas and Tom Mandrake) was published, establishing his new continuity. However, the Power of Shazam! graphic novel now provides the current continuity, telling the story of Captain Marvel’s origin and public debut. The graphic novel is set four years prior to the current series and also set before Cap’s appearance in Justice League. The letter column for POS #4 states “most '80s and '90s appearances of Captain Marvel did happen — he was in the Justice League, was Eclipsoed, the whole nine yards.” In POS #13, Cap himself mentions his JLA membership.](http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/profiles/captainmarvel.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comic-book-retcons-that-were-ignored/295541.md?page=5)