# Comma after Year **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074 "2016-06-22T18:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/21 "2016-06-23T14:06:28Z")
Microsoft Word says there should be a comma there! (Will underline it if there is no comma there.) So that is that unless you want to argue with Microsoft. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/22 "2016-06-23T14:38:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But in a sentence like “the November 7, 2017, elections are expected to have a record turnout” the comma would serve no such purpose. It still serves a purpose, because it helps the reader parse the sentence correctly on the first pass. Sure, you could figure it out, but if you misinterpreted it the first time, you’d have to go back to the beginning to make sense of it. I would still strongly recommend a comma there. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/23 "2016-06-23T19:12:13Z")
> [@Me\_Billy](#): > > Microsoft Word says there should be a comma there! (Will underline it if there is no comma there.) > > So that is that unless you want to argue with Microsoft. All the more reason no comma is necessary after the year unless it is necessary for some other reason. I do not agree with many of MS suggestions, including when to use “which” or “that” but that’s another subject. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/24 "2016-06-23T19:26:03Z")
I would have gone with “… **which** is another subject.” ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/25 "2016-06-23T19:42:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I would have gone with “… **which** is another subject.” MS would probably agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/26 "2016-06-23T22:18:54Z")
Some style guides say (no cite, just memory) that you need a comma after a phrase if the phrase conventionally contains a comma. The example in the OP is one, but also: The murder occurred in Mobile, Ala., and the body was later moved across state lines. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/27 "2016-06-23T22:35:58Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > A pause is not always a place for a comma, so I will not follow that reasoning. You are free to do as you choose. But as with other rules that people don’t want to follow (e.g. using “fewer” rather than “less” to describe countable objects), you’re basically choosing to have a large number of people think you’re wrong to make some sort of point. You’re not going to be around to tell everyone who reads your words why you’re a special snowflake, the rule is bad, the first use of “your way” appeared in 16,419 BC, or whatever. They’re just going to think “he’s doing this wrong” and move on. It’s easier just to conform – grammar isn’t a great moral sin that requires strident opposition, it’s just a set of admittedly arbitrary rules that we’ve mostly agreed on at this point in time. > [@barbitu8](#): > > My local newspaper does not insert that comma Be very careful of using newspapers as style guides. The quirks of short column widths cause them to make a number of stylistic, punctuation, vocabulary, and grammatical choices that are unique to that specific industry. Visual layout, avoiding “rivers” or wide spacing, column lengths and weird pagination, and similar concerns cause newspapers to almost always be a special case. Dropping anything even vaguely optional to save space and characters is much more common in newspaper text than in other formal writing forms. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/28 "2016-06-23T22:55:24Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > My local newspaper does not insert that comma… The online version of the Charleston Post and Courier [includes the comma after the year](http://www.postandcourier.com/20160623/160629757/a-brave-chapter-in-hong-kong). If you have an example of it being omitted in the printed version, it is probably for the reasons **TimeWinder** describes. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/29 "2016-06-24T01:02:05Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > . . . “the November 7, 2017, elections are expected to have a record turnout” . . . > [@Kedikat](#): > > Not terribly good at grammar. But could subtracting the comma after 2017, leave it possible, that there might have been 2017 elections on November 7? Or does the, “the” in front of November, negate that possibility? > [@CurtC](#): > > It still serves a purpose, because it helps the reader parse the sentence correctly on the first pass. Sure, you could figure it out, but if you misinterpreted it the first time, you’d have to go back to the beginning to make sense of it. I would still strongly recommend a comma there. Well, the, “the elections on November 7, 2017, are expected to have a large turnout”. The comma does not contribute to clarity, and I myself would not include it. I wouldn’t see any point, and I would think a style guide requiring it is unduly fussy. (Though, in fairness, I wouldn’t use the month-day-year format in the first place.) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/30 "2016-06-24T01:04:06Z")
In addition the the date, I would not use the comma after a state or country. Unless it was the end of a phrase or clause of course. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/31 "2016-06-24T23:16:51Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > I have heard and read (even just recently) that a comma must follow the year in dates; e.g., On January 2, 2016, xyz happened. I don’t see the need for that comma and I refuse to insert it. Is it required to be grammatically correct? Well why did you put two commas for the date? You can just do “On 2nd January 2016 XYZ happened”, no comma needed. It all depends If you say “last wednesday, the 2nd January 2016, XYZ happened” the commas surround the additional clause. If you add a complete sentence instead, you surround it with hyphens If you say “last wednesday - BTW that day was my birthday - XYZ happened” But it does depend if you are writing it as a record of spoken words, or for an actor to read, or you might put it in ( ) if its really information or in a novel. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/32 "2016-06-24T23:28:10Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > … > If you say “last wednesday, the 2nd January 2016, XYZ happened” > the commas surround the additional clause. > … Wait! We had two Januaries this year? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/33 "2016-06-25T00:47:12Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > In addition the the date, I would not use the comma after a state or country. Unless it was the end of a phrase or clause of course. This is a style issue analogous to the one in the OP that many people, and indeed, many online publications, don’t seem to know about, or don’t follow. (Although I suspect it is mostly through ignorance, not a concious choice, like **Siam Sam** seems to be making.) That is, when mentioning a city/state or city/country combination, a comma follows that latter term. “The author was born in Baltimore, Maryland, in 1955.” ISTM that in both this case and that of the OP, the reason for surrounding the items in question with commas is that they are [appositives](http://snarkygrammarguide.blogspot.com/2010/08/commas-accentuating-appositive.html). They add extra (but syntactically inessential) information that clarifies the precedent. I know of no style guides that support omitting the second comma in the city/state or city/country case, **Sam**. I hope you’ll reconsider. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/34 "2016-06-25T00:52:27Z")
A year or state after a city is a descriptor. If you put a comma in front of it, you _must_ put a comma after it. “I went to Columbus, Ohio, on April 4, 2011, by train.” Omitting the second comma results in the misuse of the first comma. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/35 "2016-06-25T02:15:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A year or state after a city is a descriptor. If you put a comma in front of it, you _must_ put a comma after it. > > “I went to Columbus, Ohio, on April 4, 2011, by train.” > > Omitting the second comma results in the misuse of the first comma. I’m sorry, but no. Most style guides say you should do this. Some do not. If you are not following any style guide you can do whatever you want, though you should want to avoid confusion. There is no such thing as _must_ in usage. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/36 "2016-06-25T02:27:22Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’m sorry, but no. > > Most style guides say you should do this. Some do not. If you are not following any style guide you can do whatever you want, though you should want to avoid confusion. There is no such thing as _must_ in usage. This is not style. It’s grammar. A comma has certain specific uses—including to separate items in a list, to set off clauses from each other, and to set off subordinate phrases and clauses and appositives. In the last case, the comma must be used in pairs (unless you hit up against the start or the end of the sentence). So, if you are not denoting a list, or separating clauses, the comma must be in pairs, indicating that the enclosed material can be lifted out without changing the meaning of the sentence. If you use the comma this way — “I went to Columbus, Ohio by train.” Then you are indicating that there are two clauses that are separated by a comma. “I went to Columbus” and “Ohio by train.” But clearly this is nonsense. There is no valid use of a comma that accounts for this. The only way to write this sentence is with a second comma— “I went to Columbus, Ohio, by train.” This indicates that the portion set off by commas can be removed without changing the meaning — “I went to Columbus by train.” This is not a matter of style. Without the second comma, the punctuation is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/37 "2016-06-25T02:32:32Z")
A comma indicates a pause. Since if I were speaking “On the 8th day of January 1995 I wrote a letter”, I would say it this way, “On the 8th day of January, 1995, I wrote a letter”, that’s the way I would write it. It’s a lot like “Thanks, John”, not “Thanks John”. The comma reflects speech patterns and the phrase doesn’t scan correctly without it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/38 "2016-06-25T03:25:37Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > A comma indicates a pause. It can indicate a pause, but very often does not. It’s very often used to set off appositives, introductory phrases, to separate clauses, etc., in which a pause may or may not be used in speech. For example, there is no pause in something like “I live in Chicago, Illinois.” And different speakers pause in different places, so it’s not at all a reliable way of figuring out where a comma belongs or not. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/39 "2016-06-25T15:02:01Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > This is a style issue analogous to the one in the OP that many people, and indeed, many online publications, don’t seem to know about, or don’t follow. (Although I suspect it is mostly through ignorance, not a concious choice, like **Siam Sam** seems to be making.) > > That is, when mentioning a city/state or city/country combination, a comma follows that latter term. “The author was born in Baltimore, Maryland, in 1955.” > > ISTM that in both this case and that of the OP, the reason for surrounding the items in question with commas is that they are [appositives](http://snarkygrammarguide.blogspot.com/2010/08/commas-accentuating-appositive.html). They add extra (but syntactically inessential) information that clarifies the precedent. > > I know of no style guides that support omitting the second comma in the city/state or city/country case, **Sam**. I hope you’ll reconsider. 🙂 > [@Acsenray](#): > > A year or state after a city is a descriptor. If you put a comma in front of it, you _must_ put a comma after it. > > “I went to Columbus, Ohio, on April 4, 2011, by train.” > > Omitting the second comma results in the misuse of the first comma. No. No! This is sheer madness. You do not need a comma after the state, it’s purely optional. I’ll not reconsider it, not even if you put a gun to my head. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074/40 "2016-06-25T15:11:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is not style. It’s grammar. Punctuation is not part of grammar. Languages were written for thousands of years before punctuation was invented. Heck, before spaces were invented. Ancient inscriptions show letter (or ideograph or hieroglyph) after letter without any additional means of distinguishing words, pauses, stops, or questions. Punctuation came in slowly over long periods of time, and various times and people and settings varied in their use. Historians can use these variations to help date old documents. The one punctuation form that most people have heard of is the controversy over the serial (or Oxford) comma. Some people would put a comma after “stops” in that last paragraph; some people would not. That’s obviously comparable to the comma uses you say are mandatory. They are not mandatory. And they are not grammar. They are style or usage. Even style guides are not mandatory. For my first book I was told I needed to conform to the Chicago Manual of Style. I went out and bought one. When I got the galleys I received an addendum: a list of about 50 in-house exceptions to Chicago style. Usage is no more law or mandatory than parents’ instructions to their own kids. You may get in trouble in their house if you don’t follow them, but you can’t expect the kids next door to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comma-after-year/758074.md?page=3)