# Commas **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 6, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893 "2000-01-06T20:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/1 "2000-01-06T20:28:00Z")
One of my English teachers taught that when using commas to delimit a list, there should be a comma before the conjunction. E.g.: red, white\*\*, and\*\* blue But in several publications, they would use: red, white **and** blue. Which is right? * * * Let the Truth of Love be lighted/ Let the Love of Truth shine clear. Sensibility/ Armed with sense and liberty With the Heart and Mind united in a single/ Perfect/ Sphere. - Rush ---
**Author:** ![Delta-9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Delta-9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delta-9)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/2 "2000-01-06T20:31:00Z")
I’ve always thought #2 was right. No comma befor the “and”. * * * The odds that the bread will fall butter side down are directly proportional to the cost of the carpet. ---
**Author:** ![aha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eada6e/32.png) [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/3 "2000-01-06T20:31:00Z")
Red,white and blue * * * “Ward, You’re upsetting the beaver.” Barbara Billingsley ---
**Author:** ![Delta-9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Delta-9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delta-9)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/4 "2000-01-06T20:32:00Z")
But there should be an “e” in “before”. Sheesh. * * * The odds that the bread will fall butter side down are directly proportional to the cost of the carpet. ---
**Author:** ![aviddiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aviddiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aviddiva)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/5 "2000-01-06T20:37:00Z")
I think there is general agreement that neither is “wrong”. I use a comma before the conjunction when I want to separate the penultimate (for those on _that_ thread) item from the last item. e.g. Bring me a pad, a pen, and a watermelon. but… Bring me a watermelon, a pad and a pen. (…depending, I suppose, on what I want each item for.) ---
**Author:** ![randomlyblanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@randomlyblanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomlyblanks)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/6 "2000-01-06T20:37:00Z")
I was taught that it doesn’t matter. Newspapers and magazines conserve space y not using them, but it’s up to you whether which you use. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/7 "2000-01-06T20:40:00Z")
This is known as the “serial comma” dispute. Both styles are common. The second style was recommended by Fowler, and is Oxford University Press house style (hence it is also called “the Oxford comma”; it is also known as “the Harvard comma”); it is more common in the U.S. than elsewhere. Although either style may cause ambiguity (in “We considered Miss Roberts for the roles of Marjorie, David’s mother, and Louise”, are there two roles or three?), the style that omits the comma is more likely to do so: “Tom, Peter, and I went swimming.” (Without the comma, one might think that the sentence was addressed to Tom.) “I ordered sandwiches today. I ordered turkey, salami, peanut butter and jelly, and roast beef.” Without that last comma, one would have a MIGHTY weird sandwich! – Gabe Wiener. James Pierce reports that an author whose custom it was to omit the comma dedicated a novel: “To my parents, Ayn Rand and God.” Here’s the source: [http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/faq/faq.html](http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/faq/faq.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/8 "2000-01-06T20:53:00Z")
The battle rages on. My Associated Press Stylebook says omit the comma before the conjunction, my Chicago Manual of Style says to include it. Our proofreader in the office is comfortable leaving it out, but my biggest client demands that it be left in. I think we can safely call this a rule in flux. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/9 "2000-01-06T21:06:00Z")
The rules have become awash. Lately, either is accepted as correct; however, there is a technical difference in meaning. Originally, a comma should have been used when listing “x, y, and z”. This was to make clear that these are three indivudal and distinct elements. However, one might mean “w, x and y, and z”…where “x and y” intentionally belong together as one element. ## For example: screws, block and tackles, and levers are all simple machines. The last comma helps seperate disticnt elements. I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy - Hawkeye 4077th ---
**Author:** ![mr\_john](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@mr\_john](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_john)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/10 "2000-01-06T22:18:00Z")
I have been in a series of serial comas since 75 and 76,82 and 83,and 95,96,and 95, * * * “Pardon me while I have a strange interlude.”-Marx ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/11 "2000-01-06T23:49:00Z")
To clarify: the usage (or not) of a serial comma is purely a matter of house style. Newspapers generally avoid it; book publishers generally use it. The only rule is to apply whichever you choose consistently throughout the manuscript. * * * “East is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.” – Marx Read “Sundials” in the new issue of Aboriginal Science Fiction. [www.sff.net/people/rothman](http://www.sff.net/people/rothman) ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/12 "2000-01-07T03:42:00Z")
“The Years with Ross” by James Thurber is an account of his years on the staff of the New Yorker. They had this very argument. Thurber remarked, “This magazine is in a commatose condition.” However, as he admits, he only came up with this remark years after the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lawrence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Lawrence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lawrence)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/13 "2000-01-07T04:43:00Z")
If you’re not a newspaper writer, you’re never wrong if you use the serial comma. ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/14 "2000-01-07T09:22:00Z")
I think the more modern form is to omit the comma before whatever explicit connective (‘or’ or ‘and’), but I think it should be in there whenever it would reduce ambiguity or the items in the series are long. Of course, if the items are whole verbal clauses, you might want to use semi-colons. Ray (not there, but getting warm. . .before a fireplace, log, andiron) ---
**Author:** ![RavingMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RavingMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RavingMad)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/15 "2000-01-07T14:44:00Z")
I’m a firm believer in that last comma! It never creates confusion, but almost always relieves it. It’s simple, easy, and fun to use! * * * ~ Complacency is far more dangerous than outrage ~ ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/16 "2000-01-07T16:52:00Z")
We talked about this before. But I guess that search function needs a Y2k update. Someone called it a ‘Boston Comma’ then. Anyway, as the def. says, comma’s seperate items. The word ‘and’ is not an item, sorry. So, no extra comma. com•ma "ka-me\ noun [LL, fr. L, part of a sentence, fr. Gk komma segment, clause, fr. koptein to cut — more at capon] (1554) 1 : a punctuation mark , used esp. as a mark of separation within the sentence 2 : pause, interval 3 : any of several nymphalid butterflies (genus Polygonia) with a silvery comma-shaped mark on the underside of the hind wings ©1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved. ---
**Author:** ![VileOrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9e8a1a/32.png) [@VileOrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VileOrb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/17 "2000-01-07T17:20:00Z")
I am a technical writer. I deal with this stuff everyday. It’s funny to me that engineers all “know” the right way. It is clear that no one, including other engineers, can understand their text. That is why I stay employed. Handy states that his rule follows the dictionary definition. May I point out that the comma before the “and” does not separate the penultimate item from the “and.” It separates the penultimate item from the ultimate (I know that’s not proper use of ultimate, but it sounds nice). The “and” joins the two and, in some sentences, joins them a little too tightly necessitating a counteracting comma. All recent shifts in punctuation, that I can think of, shorten text. For instance, there is a movement to eliminate the double-space after a period. As long as it does not interfere with clear prose I don’t fight it. Personally, I like the double-space. It makes it easier to skim because the sentence breaks jump out at you. HTML eliminates all double spaces by default. As far as the comma list goes, I think it is clear from the previous posts that you need to read the sentence carefully and choose the punctuation that makes it most clear. If it doesn’t matter, then it doesn’t matter except that consistency is desirable. Personally, I put the comma in as default because that was the way I was taught 20+ years ago. * * * If men had wings, and bore black feathers, few of them would be clever enough to be crows. - Rev. Henry Ward Beecher ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/18 "2000-01-07T17:26:00Z")
Yep, seems like the double space after the sentence left home with the indented paragraph. I used to work in direct marketing (mail order) and followed the USPS injunction to omit the period after the state and before the Zip code. I do it routinely now: MA 01414 I’m sure I’ve seen it children’s English text books but what’s the scoop from your point of view? * * * Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&\* codes 'til I get 'em right. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/19 "2000-01-07T17:28:00Z")
No, I omit all of them! Marlborough MA 01414 Clinton MA 14584 This was the format requested/demanded of direct marketers a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![Nickrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@Nickrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nickrz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893/20 "2000-01-07T17:36:00Z")
The trouble, with commas, is, most people use, too damn, many of them. When in doubt, leave it out! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commas/5893.md?page=2)