# Comments of "what is the origin of a grand"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [October 24, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672 "2002-10-24T13:04:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/1 "2002-10-24T13:04:42Z")
in the Staff coloumn "[What is the origin of a grand](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgrand.html)
you assert that:
> [@](#):
>
> However, when you get to computer network speeds, they tell me–I claim no personal expertise–that kilo (as in kilobits per second) = 1,000. Some try to keep things straight by using k to mean 1,000 while K means 1,024
Actually, kb/s is used to refer to kiloBYTES per second whereas KB/s is used to refer to kiloBITS per second with 8 kilobits per kilobyte. when talking about transfer rates. This is sometimes switched around as well to confuse things even more. Fortunately, for LAN connections, Mbit and MB/s is used to clear things up a bit.
Also, I am not aware of a SINGLE hard drive manufacturer who does NOT use 10^9 instead of 2^30 bytes for a gigabyte when measuring HD space.
---
### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/2 "2002-10-24T14:01:52Z")
Some confusion here, I’m afraid.
1. It’s _always_ “k”, never “K”. “kb” is “kilobit”, “kB” is “kilobyte”. (In this case, it doesn’t matter, but in other cases, like “M/m”, it does, so one should always be correct.)
2. “k” or “kilo” correctly means 1,000 only; using it to mean “1,024”, though common, is the techno equivalent of slang.
3. However, the convenience of a 1,024-based system is recognized. A few years ago, new prefixes were added to the system to take care of this. 1,024 bytes is a kibibyte (KiB).
Here’s the whole megillah.
```auto
yocto y 10^-24 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001
zepto z 10^-21 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 001
atto a 10^-18 0.000 000 000 000 000 001
femto f 10^-15 0.000 000 000 000 001
pico p 10^-12 0.000 000 000 001
nano n 10^-9 0.000 000 001
micro (mu) 10^-6 0.000 001
milli m 10^-3 0.001
centi* c 10^-2 0.01
deci* d 10^-1 0.1
deca* da 10^1 10
hecto* h 10^2 100
kilo k 10^3 1 000
kibi Ki 2^10 1 024
myria** my 10^4 10 000
mega M 10^6 1 000 000
mebi Mi 2^20 1 048 576
giga G 10^9 1 000 000 000
gibi Gi 2^30 1 073 741 824
tera T 10^12 1 000 000 000 000
tebi Ti 2^40 1 099 511 627 776
peta P 10^15 1 000 000 000 000 000
pebi Pi 2^50 1 125 899 906 842 624
exa E 10^18 1 000 000 000 000 000 000
exbi Ei 2^60 1 152 921 504 606 846 976
zetta Z 10^21 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
yotta Y 10^24 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
```
- deca-, deci-, hecto-, and centi- are obsolescent in scientific use.
\*\* myria- is obsolete in general.
Disks are traditionally measured in real kilobytes, _etc.,_ rather than kibibytes, _etc.,_ because disks were first introduced ca. 1960 on the all-decimal computers that were then far more popular than binary computers. The most popular disk drive of the early 60’s had a capacity of exactly 2,000,000 characters, and its successor, 7,250,000 bytes.
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### Author:  [@Snafu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snafu)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/3 "2002-10-24T14:59:34Z")
Back to the topic…
Isn’t there ANY relationship between Grand = $1000 and the demarcation of petty and grand larceny at $1000???
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### Author:  [@richlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richlb)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/4 "2002-10-24T16:02:01Z")
Another representation of 1,000 is the letter M. It’s used a lot in showing quantities. Such as 22M to show 22,000. We use it a lot in printing.
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### Author:  [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/5 "2002-10-24T16:04:13Z")
So if Giga is 10^9, how can someone have a Billion dollars? Isn’t a Billion one Gigabuck? Same with Trillion and terabuck? I’m guessing it’s some screwed up English carryover deal…
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### Author:  [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/6 "2002-10-24T16:08:32Z")
In printing M represents the Roman Numeral for 1000
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### Author:  [@SandWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandWriter)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/7 "2002-10-24T16:12:03Z")
In printing M represents the Roman Numeral for 1000.
I’m guessing each industry has their special numbering system, but someday, a copy machine may crash into mars when someone thinks 10M = 10,000,000 instead of 10,000.
Actually, now that I think about it, why do they mix two numbering systems together? 22 isn’t a roman numeral?
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### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/8 "2002-10-24T19:28:04Z")
“M” is also the initial for the Latin word for “thousand”. But the traditional rule in the metric system was that Greek prefixes were used for large numbers and Latin for small – thus, “m” is “milli-”, 1/1000.
It is entirely possible to possess $1,000,000,000 or more. I believe only governments have $1,000,000,000,000 accounts – perhaps one or two large corporations, too.
“Billion” and larger words like “trillion”, however, are dangerous. Traditionally, in the UK (and Germany), a billion is 10^12 and a trillion is 10^18, while, in the US (and France), a billion is 10^9 and a trillion is 10^12. The US form is, however, becoming more widespread. But a “giga-” is 10^9 anywhere.
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/9 "2002-10-24T20:04:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Snafu \*
> \*\*Back to the topic…
>
> Isn’t there ANY relationship between Grand = $1000 and the demarcation of petty and grand larceny at $1000??? \*\*
Considering that grand larceny has traditionally started at $500, I wouldn’t think so.
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### Author:  [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/10 "2002-10-24T20:09:56Z")
Aye, in the world of embedded systems this, too, is subject to debate. To see a dialect of this conversation, refer to the URL: below
[http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20021012S0001](http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20021012S0001)
---
### Author:  [@wilcobearswamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wilcobearswamp)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/11 "2002-10-28T13:33:33Z")
Actually, in serial communications only one bit at a time can occupy a timeslot; therefore, it is more proper to refer to “bits per second” than “bytes per second.” 56k, 64k, 1.5M, 2M, 45M, etc. are ALL references to bits per second. The proper abbreviation (to avoid all confusion) is kbit/s or Mbit/s. (I believe these abbreviations are ISO standards, but I can’t find a reference right now – and I’m late for work.)
By the way, according to the NIST: powers of 10 are indeed kilo, mega, etc. [http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html](http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html)
But, powers of two are officially: kibi (2^10), mebi (2^20), gibi (2^30), etc. I realize this is a bit pendantic, since no one outside of the International Electrotechnical Commission (the creators of these wonderful prefixes) probably uses such terminology. [http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html](http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html)
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### Author:  [@JohnStracke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnStracke)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/12 "2002-10-28T16:25:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \*
> \*\*Some confusion here, I’m afraid.
>
> 1. It’s _always_ “k”, never “K”. “kb” is “kilobit”, “kB” is “kilobyte”.
>
> 2. “k” or “kilo” correctly means 1,000 only; using it to mean “1,024”, though common, is the techno equivalent of slang.\*\*
As always when arguing over correct usage, it really comes down to cultural differences–calling something “slang” usually translates as “that’s not the way I learned it”. In my experience, “k=1000” usually comes from telecom-oriented cultures, while “K=1024” usually comes from computer-oriented cultures (possibly only, or mostly, from small computers, where the difference between 1000 and 1024 becomes more vital). These technical cultures developed largely in isolation, and didn’t start to overlap strongly until the past 10-20 years.
Typically, today, computer people accept 1000 for telecom-related topics (e.g., bit rates), use 1024 for core computer topics (e.g., memory), and grind their teeth over 1000 for hard drive sizes. To cope with the disconnect, we use “k” for 1000 and “K” for 1024. So a modem carries up to 56k bits/sec (56,000), but an old computer might have 64KB of RAM (65,536). Unfortunately, there is no such agreement for mega; a 10Mbps Ethernet runs at 10^7 bits/sec, while 1MB of RAM is 2^20 bytes.
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### Author:  [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/13 "2002-10-28T19:38:34Z")
There are prefixes above those already mentioned:
```auto
Kilo 10^3 1,000
Kibi 2^10 1,024
Mega 10^6 1,000,000
Mebi 2^20 1,048,576
Giga 10^9 1,000,000,000
Gibi 2^30 1,073,741,824
Tera 10^12 1,000,000,000,000
Tebi 2^40 1,099,511,627,776
Peta 10^15 1,000,000,000,000,000
Pebi 2^50 1,125,899,906,842,624
Exa 10^18 1,000,000,000,000,000,000
Exbi 2^60 1,152,921,504,606,846,976
Hepa 10^21 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Hebi 2^70 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,424
Otta 10^24 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Otbi 2^80 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,706,176
Nea 10^27 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Nebi 2^90 1,237,940,039,285,380,274,899,124,224
Dea 10^30 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Debi 2^100 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376
Una 10^33 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Unbi 2^110 1,298,074,214,633,706,907,132,624,082,305,024
```
Now when you feel a need to exaggerate you can do it with precision.
- jam
---
### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [October 29, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/14 "2002-10-29T03:11:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \*
> \*\*\* deca-, deci-, hecto-, and centi- are obsolescent in scientific use._\*
So scientists don’t use deciBels and centimeters any more?
---
### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [October 29, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/15 "2002-10-29T15:04:37Z")
The “nea”, “dea” prefixes, _etc.,_ are bogus, apparently an Internet prank. The list I gave earlier is correct.
The non-1000 prefixes, such as “centi”, are still in the metric system, so most scientists outside of the USA will probably continue to use them casually. But they are no longer in the SI, which is what scientists are supposed to use for technical work.
I suspect “hectare”, “decibel”, and “decamired” may continue to be seen, since they are used far more often than “are”, “bel”, and “mired” (I don’t even know if the mired is an SI unit to begin with, come to think of it.)
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [October 29, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/16 "2002-10-29T20:32:08Z")
What in heck is a “mired”? Is that the basic unit of how stuck in the mud your car is? Are high-traction tires rated in “kilomires”?
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### Author:  [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2002, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/17 "2002-10-30T05:20:44Z")
As I can find no substantial support for my list of
prefixes I will have to consider myself duped. (It
was some time ago and I have misplaced the
source. Although, I seem to recall that is was in
a glossy print, that too may be an unreliable
record in my wet memory.)
I will update my files as appropriate with “the
megillah” list. (Thanks for being gentle…)
- jam
---
### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/18 "2002-10-30T15:56:00Z")
Found it. A “mired” is 1,000,000 divided by the color-temperature in degrees Kelvin. It’s sometimes written as MK[sup]-1[/sup], but to my thinking, this is inaccurate. It should either have an extra set of parentheses, and be M(K[sup]-1[/sup]), or use a Greek letter mu and be uK[sup]-1[/sup]. The notational convention is that when a unit is raised to a power, its kilo/Mega/milli/micro/etc. modifier is also raised to the same power.
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### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-of-what-is-the-origin-of-a-grand/133672/19 "2002-10-30T17:59:16Z")
And the decamired is used instead of the mired for the same reason the decibel is used instead of the bel; each one is the roughly the smallest difference that can be detected by human senses. Mired stands for micro-reciprocal-degree.
Similarly, it’s reciprocal for the same reason the bel is logarithmic. A human eye perceives the mired scale as roughly linear.
And for those who have no idea what we’re talking about – light from a hot source (like a flame, an incandescent bulb, or the sun) goes up a scale from red-hot through white-hot to blue-hot, depending on the temperature. Photographers have to be aware of this, because, while your eye can be fooled into thinking the light around you is white when it really isn’t; film tells the truth. That’s why you have to either have separate daylight and indoor film or else use a correcting filter. (Modern negative-positive processing looks at the negative and automatically adjusts the average color of the print to look good, but slides and home movie film – remember home movie film? – don’t have negatives, so the correction has to be done beforehand.) You can get color meters, just as you can get light meters; they are normally calibrated in decamireds.