# Comments on ATMB remarks from Tuba **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863 "2005-09-22T11:19:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/281 "2005-09-26T01:08:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you can show just exactly how this “disruptive force” works his voodoo so that everything stops when he appears, yet idiots can wander through religious threads making rather dumb anti-religious comments and other idiots can wander through scientific threads making truly idiotic religious comments and clowns can tramp all over political threads making morons look brilliant and none of those people have the power to disrupt the board, then you might persuade me that we need to “do something” about **Liberal**. You are ignoring some really basic shit, here, **Tom**. Any given poster can be disruptive at times, but **Liberal** is disruptive a very high percentage of times. To repeat and clarify, there will always be a certain amount of disruption on the boards brought about by the community as a whole. But **Liberal** causes an inordinate proportion of that entire disruption. Another fundamental mistake you are making, not just here but in your overall moderation vis-a-vis **Liberal** , is that you think the _cause_ of **Liberal’s** “voodoo” (as you put it) must be completely explicated before you or other mods can do anything about it. Is he clearly breaking a rule _in this instance_? Is he, in reality, manifesting as a “jerk”–or not? And so on you worry and fret, while the poster in question rides roughshod over the boards for both the short term and the long. Surely you are aware of the concept of the “red face test” in marketing? If, after all your careful and sophisticated analysis and experimentation, the conclusions you have reached make you blush with embarrassment (e.g., new formula Coke), you have to go with common sense and deem your conclusion incorrect. I think other posters share my frustration with the mods’ consistent ignoring of the red face test results concerning **Lib**. He disrupts the boards, he hijacks, he whines, whinges, and plays the martyr with gusto. Yet still the mods stroke their beards and opine, “Hmm, can’t see how he’s done anything really against the rules.” No joke! Because the man is a master of what he does. _Can’t you see you’re being played, man?_ He will always dance along the borders of the Kingdom of Rules and whine to the Princes thereof when a dragon dares to stick his snout within. Really, the only difference between **Liberal** and many a banned poster is that he never lays his full house of hostility toward the board and the mods on the table. His craftiness and dishonesty make him worse than the majority of the banned, IMO. > [@](#): > > What I continue to see in this thread are claims that he has a magic power to be disruptive. No, it’s a skill. What can’t you accept that? > [@](#): > > (I am also beginning to see some whining that he gets special treatment, although in nine months of Moderating I notice that I am not bombarded with reports complaining about his behavior.) And in those nine months there have been plenty of pittings and one suspension. > [@](#): > > Basically, the argument seems to be that it is the duty of the staff to save you folks from your own inability to withhold responses to posts that you think are irritating. OK, let’s run with that logic. **Reeder** posts a bunch of inane one-line threads about Bush. Just ignore them. **Lissener** starts getting hostile about _Showgirls_ in cafe and says “fuck you” to a poster. Ignore it–you don’t need the mods to protect you from that shit, do you? **SnakeSpirit** gets argumentative and fesity in GD. Hey, you know the drill. Why, may I ask, do we ever ban _anyone_? After all, it is not the duty of the staff to protect posters from posts they find irritating, or to hold their hands and prevent them from responding. > [@](#): > > I am willing to stipulate that **Liberal** is often hard to understand. > I am willing to stipulate that he has a mean temper and that he sometimes lashes out at people out of proportion to their perceived offense. > I am willing to stipulate that he has portrayed himself as a martyr on several occasions… > > So? And are you willing to admit that he’s a master hijacker and the most disruptive and despised poster on the board? Even so, who gives a shit, right? Why ban anyone, right? > [@](#): > > I can think of several posters in this thread who have been taken to task for posting (perceived) gibberish. > There are several posters in this thread with deserved reputations for overreacting to perceived slights. Such disingenous (yeah, and I think I’m using the word properly) reasoning. > [@](#): > > Everyone that claims that they simply cannot resist feeding his “hijacks” is playing the role of martyr. Oh bullshit. Why don’t you, as mod, have any real curiosity as to how the phenomenon works? **Liberal** doesn’t enter a thread and simply yell “Hijack!” Typically, he makes a point that is off-center but not completely off-topic; further, this point is one about which many posters are bound to disagree. Newbies or simply the easily-baited chomp down on that and are now arguing with each other. Then the wiser say, “Fuck off, Liberal, that’s off-topic.” Now we have the argument about the point **Lib** tossed in, an argument about **Lib’s** behavior, and perhaps even an argument about whether the point was off-topic. Naturally, all the while **Lib** is fanning whatever flame pops up, making sure that his ultimate goal is fulfilled: making the whole fucking thread about himself. So, to sum up, this is how **Liberal** does it, and this why he is not easily ignored: 1. He makes a controversial, baiting, off-center point. 2. Newbies or the easily baited take the bait. 3. Wiser, more experienced posters chastise his behavior. 4. Liberal continues to argue the original argument, argue the point he threw in, and argue about his own behavior. 5. He pursues whatever course of argument that is viable and about himself or his POV. 6. If he’s lucky, a Pit thread will be started about him, and now he can feed like a pig at the trough of his own ego. > [@](#): > > I make no claim that **Lib** is an ideal poster. I do not claim that he has not earned the anger directed against him. No shit, Sherlock! > [@](#): > > I am not, however, going to recommend banning based on the notion that some loud contingent of posters does not like him. Staw man, everywhere your logic is rotten with self-serving (or “peace”-serving) fallacies. People don’t just “dislike” **Liberal**. They hate his constant disrupting the board and turning it into his ego trip. He ruins good threads on a consistent basis. > [@](#): > > Wander back through this thread. The condemnation of **Lib** does not approach unanimity. Of course not. Any poster that stirs shit up so well is going to have a following. By this logic, why ban **Satan**? > [@](#): > > **Lib** , like a number of posters, is a lightning rod for strong feelings, but if that is the justification for throwing someone out, several of his detractors would find themselves bouncing on the pavement alongside him. I call bullshit on this, too. Some people like him for who he is, and, personally, I don’t dislike him at all for his writing style, beliefs, or worldview. I don’t even mind so much his snipiness and grumpiness. It’s his hijacking, whining, and egotism manifested in many, many ruined or highly disrupted threads that I find intolerable. Verily, if you can figure out how to deal with **Liberal** (and I am not necessarily gunning for a banning, though he deserves it if anyone), then you will advance the nascent Science of Moderation a great deal. Why not actually ponder these matters, **Tom** , instead of taking the easy way out with the bullshit you’ve offered in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/282 "2005-09-26T01:18:57Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > He disrupts the boards, he hijacks, he whines, whinges, and plays the martyr with gusto. I think you’ve written this in the wrong tense. Currently, the only way **Lib** is being remotely problematic on the boards is in this thread, where the vast majority of ugliness is coming for folks besides him. He did all these things. He may do all these things again. But for now, he’s not doing them; and I don’t think it serves anyone to belabor his past misbehavior at this point. If he starts it back up, by all means, criticize him. But why not let sleeping dogs lie? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/283 "2005-09-26T01:35:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Why not actually ponder these matters, Tom, instead of taking the easy way out with the bullshit you’ve offered in this thread? Actually, I have pondered this quite a bit. I have even initiated discussions regarding this topic among the staff. Ultimately, however, your entire lengthy post is simply a long claim that because a certain number of posters who do not like **Lib** continue to respond every time he posts, it is the obligation of the staff to ban him. He is not the only poster about whom these claims could be made, (although he is is the most prolific). However, if the rule that you would like to see implemented is that any poster whose presence causes a large number of other posters to lose control of their bowels should be banned, you really might not like to see the list of posters who would wake up with no access to the board the next day. > [@](#): > > And are you willing to admit that he’s a master hijacker and the most disruptive and despised poster on the board? Nope. I am willing to acknowledge that he has a following of more posters who simply cannot ignore him. > [@](#): > > So, to sum up, this is how Liberal does it, and this why he is not easily ignored: > > 1. He makes a controversial, baiting, off-center point. > > 2. Newbies or the easily baited take the bait. > > 3. Wiser, more experienced posters chastise his behavior. > > 4. Liberal continues to argue the original argument, argue the point he threw in, and argue about his own behavior. > > 5. He pursues whatever course of argument that is viable and about himself or his POV. > > 6. If he’s lucky, a Pit thread will be started about him, and now he can feed like a pig at the trough of his own ego. 1. As do all the posters who enter religious threads to mock belief, scientific threads to claim that science is in error in regard to belief, and some enoromous number of “bush bashers” and “bush champions,” (to say nothing of the ongoing feuds regarding the paranormal, the spiritual, child-rearing, cat declawing, and a host of other issues). 2. Far more old hands jump on **Lib** than newbies. 3. I do not actually recall any significant number of posters suggesting that his off-topic remarks be ignored. (And a claim that they fear the rule against DNFTT holds no water if they simply suggested to a newbie that further discussion would be fruitless with a link to earlier discussions.) 4, 5) **Lib** then defends the positions he has taken and against the personal attacks that are then launched. (Unlike any other poster whose opinions are challenged, of course.) 1. Is your _perception_ of his motives, perceptions that do not jibe with mine. The fact that his posts do raise such controversy and personal antagonism is, indeed, a matter of some concern. The proposed solution, however, appears to be “Enough of us do not like him that you should remove him from our presence.” Again, I suggest that you re-read the first few pages of this thread (or do a search on the word “welcome”) to see that there is hardly unanimity of opinion on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/284 "2005-09-26T03:55:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I was not involved in your exchange with **Veb** and I will not presume to speak for her. If you feel that she was in error, you’ll be more likely to get satisfaction (or a clear explanation) from her. I would really prefer to not attempt to speak for her. Yet her posts to me were in response to my hissy fit directed at you. A woman rode in on her white charger to speak for you but you won’t take up the cudgel for her? How very gallant! 😉 **Tom** , my longtime friend, I acted like a jerk earlier and let my sense of justice and fairplay, ossified when I was six, speak for me and I apologize. You have been nothing but cordial and patient through this whole thread. **Veb** , my longtime friend, I acted like a jerk earlier and let my sense of justice and fairplay, ossified when I was six, speak for me and I am still somewhat angry over your warning over what I saw as a trifle. Maybe I’ll ghrow up at some time but I’m more likely to just forget about it. I hope you can do the same. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/285 "2005-09-26T04:15:24Z")
I don’t get paid (in coffemugs) to be gallant. My role is to be a moderating effect on the threads of the board and stepping into a misunderstanding between another moderator and a staff member would be an abrogation of that duty. Apology \*to me \* (unnecessary, but) accepted. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/286 "2005-09-26T04:20:06Z")
Your role as a _moderator_ is to moderate. As a _staff member_ my role is, lemme see, both words mean “penis” so i guess it’s my role to be a dick. Looks like I have that covered! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/287 "2005-09-26T06:01:01Z")
I disagree with much of what Aeschines posted. I have never felt that Liberal was intentionally seeking a confrontation. I’ve always felt he sincerely believes in what he posts and is surprised by how much opposition he receives for it. I think (and here I’m admittedly guessing) that he believes his opinions are so obviously true that he is unable to accept that other people don’t believe the same and feels everyone else must be playing some game when they claim to disagree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/288 "2005-09-26T12:49:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ultimately, however, your entire lengthy post is simply a long claim that because a certain number of posters who do not like Lib continue to respond every time he posts, it is the obligation of the staff to ban him. Succinctly, and in my view accurately, put. Anyone else notice that we have now had six pages of people complaining about how persistently, constantly disruptive **Lib** is, based on exactly one post? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/289 "2005-09-26T15:03:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Anyone else notice that we have now had six pages of people complaining about how persistently, constantly disruptive **Lib** is, based on exactly one post? Absolutely, and I think it’s no good. Save it for when he starts screwing up again, if he starts screwing up again. If he doesn’t, well, booyah! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/290 "2005-09-26T15:34:26Z")
Dan’l, I think this thread has been to release a lot of the pent-up anger at **Lib** what couldn’t be released during his absense. Don’t worry, I’m sure everybody can find plenty more when they need it. I must say, though, that the (holding nose) _understanding_ promoted by **tomndebb** , **Little Nemo** , and others could be mistaken for support and could encourage Lib. Not that I care, but others might be bothered by it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/291 "2005-09-26T15:43:03Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Dan’l, I think this thread has been to release a lot of the pent-up anger at **Lib** what couldn’t be released during his absense. Don’t worry, I’m sure everybody can find plenty more when they need it. I must say, though, that the (holding nose) _understanding_ promoted by **tomndebb** , **Little Nemo** , and others could be mistaken for support and could encourage Lib. Not that I care, but others might be bothered by it. Possibly. I think **Tom’s** mostly right with his understanding, but: 1. I don’t think it excuses **Lib’s** behavior; and 2. I don’t think it’s relevant, as long as he’s not posting in the way that’s caused so many problems in the past. I don’t really have anger pent up over **Lib** : I think it’s fair to say that I’ve never pent it up :). If other folks have to vent, I suppose they have to vent. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/292 "2005-09-26T17:07:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **Tom** , my longtime friend, I acted like a jerk earlier and let my sense of justice and fairplay, ossified when I was six, speak for me and I apologize. You have been nothing but cordial and patient through this whole thread. > > **Veb** , my longtime friend, I acted like a jerk earlier and let my sense of justice and fairplay, ossified when I was six, speak for me and I am still somewhat angry over your warning over what I saw as a trifle. Maybe I’ll ghrow up at some time but I’m more likely to just forget about it. I hope you can do the same. What, no apology for getting me caught in your crossfire? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/293 "2005-09-26T17:38:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! Our beamish boy has come galumphing back! > > All manxome foes beware, the Vorpal Sword flashes in the dark once more! > > I’m all mimsy with anticipation! I am not folllowing this thread to any real extent, but I just have to say this is the funniest thing I have ever read here. Blessings to you, **Fear Itself** for brightening my day! Priceless! ---
**Author:** ![Purd\_Werfect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Purd\_Werfect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purd_Werfect)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/294 "2005-09-26T17:53:28Z")
My email address is in my profile. Could some kind or unkind soul send me a link to the anon forums? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/295 "2005-09-26T17:54:34Z")
It’s probably digs like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6622371&postcount=50) that make **Lib** think people are out to get him. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/296 "2005-09-26T18:01:17Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What, no apology for getting me caught in your crossfire? 😉 Tom and Veb outrank me. You are a mere charter member and are, therefore, beneath my notice except when you do something annoying, like speak to me without being spoken to. Go polish my boots, varlet, lest I cuff you for you insolence! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/297 "2005-09-26T18:02:52Z")
> [@Purd Werfect](#): > > My email address is in my profile. Could some kind or unkind soul send me a link to the anon forums? Thanks. Trust us, you’ll feel dirty after you’ve been there. I happen to like feeling dirty, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/298 "2005-09-26T18:22:38Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > It’s probably digs like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6622371&postcount=50) that make **Lib** think people are out to get him. Look at the _context_ of my post. It was a joke (that even **catsix** understood.) But thanks for singling mine out. :rolleyes: This is what half the people in this thread have been complaining about. As soon as anyone mentions the dreaded **L** -word the whole board goes on point. It’s taboo. Special treatment from both the mods AND other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/299 "2005-09-26T18:30:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Trust us, you’ll feel dirty after you’ve been there. I happen to like feeling dirty, but YMMV. But…certainly he should get a chance to see the evidence of The Greatest Conspiracy of Our Age. Since for some reason libertarian **Liberal** has declined to do so. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863/300 "2005-09-26T18:32:28Z")
Oh, I got your joke. Very funny. And I didn’t single you out. The rest of the jokes against **Dio** and **Eve** were hardly pertinent to this thread. All I’m saying is that if you don’t think posts like that feed **Lib’s** persecution complex then you haven’t been paying attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-atmb-remarks-from-tuba/322863.md?page=16)