# Comments on LOTR:ROTK:EE **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637 "2004-12-13T18:40:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/21 "2004-12-15T14:17:12Z")
Haven’t watched it yet, but I’m disapointed to see that the Denethor/palantir bit was not fleshed out more. The extra Denethor scenes in TTT EE made such a huge difference in understanding the plot development-- PJ could’ve done the same thing for RotK. Too bad. Still, I’m lokoing forward to a nice leisurely viewing this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/22 "2004-12-15T16:00:48Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > WitchKing vs. Gandalf – looked AWESOME, but G-man seemed a little weak. He beat down a Balrog in Moria, but this Dementor-on-Speed smacked him on his ass with just a wave?? And this was the same Nazgul who got punk’d by a scrawny, greasy-haired man with a flaming stick way back on Weathertop? Hmmf. The same thought crossed my mind – perhaps this is why the scene wasn’t used; Gandalf was overly wimpy. But the difference between WK at Weathertop and WK at Gondor is a Tolkien-based, not a Jackson flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/23 "2004-12-15T16:33:09Z")
Haven’t seen it…must…not…read…this…thread. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/24 "2004-12-15T16:37:02Z")
I enjoy any scene where there are pieces of dialogue is lifted unchanged right out of the book. During the Voice of Saruman scene, I was soundlessly mouthing the speech “. . . where brigands drink in the reek, and brats roll in the dirt with the dogs” along with Christopher Lee. For this reason, I also loved the added scene where Gandalf was explaining the history of Gondor to Pippin. Now there was a meaty scene that helped us to understand the status of the city of Minas Tirith, as well as giving us more of that delicious Shakespearean Ian McKellan diction. All in all, two thumbs up. Tonight, I’ll watch the cast commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/25 "2004-12-15T16:45:48Z")
> [@pugluvr](#): > > For this reason, I also loved the added scene where Gandalf was explaining the history of Gondor to Pippin. Now there was a meaty scene that helped us to understand the status of the city of Minas Tirith, as well as giving us more of that delicious Shakespearean Ian McKellan diction. Actually this reminds me of something. I’ve only seen it once so far, but during this speech, Gandalf says something about Minas Tirith standing for a 1,000 years. Maybe I misheard or misunderstood what he was saying–but isn’t the city much older than that? Wasn’t it there in Isildur’s day, 3,000 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/26 "2004-12-15T17:01:42Z")
> [@Miss Mapp](#): > > Actually this reminds me of something. I’ve only seen it once so far, but during this speech, Gandalf says something about Minas Tirith standing for a 1,000 years. Maybe I misheard or misunderstood what he was saying–but isn’t the city much older than that? Wasn’t it there in Isildur’s day, 3,000 years ago? Yes, it was built before the end of the 2nd Age, though it was called Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun, after Elendil’s other son Anoríen) until Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon, named after Elendil’s more famous son, Isildur) was captured by Sauron and renamed Minas Morgul (Tower of Dark Sorcery). Then the city was renamed Minas Tirith (Tower of Guard). The War of the Ring ended in TA 3019. Gondor was founded in SA 3320. The Second Age ended in the year 3441. So add 21 years to 3019= 3,040 years old. As I’ve never actually seen the EE, I can’t say why they messed that up… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/27 "2004-12-15T17:02:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > As I’ve never actually seen the EE, I can’t say why they messed that up… Unless he’s going from the time it WAS renamed Minas Tirith, which happened in TA 2002. It would be roughly 1000 years from that time. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/28 "2004-12-15T17:09:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes, it was built before the end of the 2nd Age, though it was called Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun, after Elendil’s other son Anoríen) until Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon, named after Elendil’s more famous son, Isildur) was captured by Sauron and renamed Minas Morgul (Tower of Dark Sorcery). Then the city was renamed Minas Tirith (Tower of Guard). > > The War of the Ring ended in TA 3019. Gondor was founded in SA 3320. The Second Age ended in the year 3441. So add 21 years to 3019= 3,040 years old. Thank you–I thought that Isildur planted the White Tree in the courtyard when the city was Minas Anor, but since I’m at work, I don’t have the opportunity to check it right now. (Also, I wasn’t quite sure if the city’s old name was Minas Anor or Ithil; I get them mixed up sometimes.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/29 "2004-12-15T20:16:55Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > This series is still flawed for me. They still left out key themes and scenes that I consider core to the work (cloak of many colors interchange, the scouring) and added a lot of dumb hokey stuff (which I primarily attribute to letting your wife write the script: never let husbands and wives do “art” together, always a recipe for Spinal Tap awfulness). I also can’t understand for the life of me why Peter Jackson uses weird made-for-tv slow-mo effects so often: looks totally amatuerish. I didn’t hate the series, but there are just too many cringeworthy bits that cannot be fixed by editing or the addition of new scenes. I don’t really care about what they left out or put in as long as the movie tells a cohesive story on its own…which IMHO it does. Not being a fanboy, the absense of some tertiary plot line or minor character means very little to me. What does distract from what is an otherwise great movie is all that bullshit with Legolas acting like he’s freakin Tony Hawk or something. I also found the constant body-count competition between Legolas and Gimli annoying as well. Sorry guys…all this “War of the Ring” stuff boring you? I did like how they didn’t make Eowyn some kind of hulking amazon, but could someone tell me why it was so easy for her to kill the Nazgul king? Basically, he tosses that mace around for awhile. Says “no man can kill me”. She pulls off her helmet and says “I’m no man…biatch…” He replies “…ah…well played…” and she stabs him in the face (or where his face would be) causing him to crumple like a Coke can. So Nazgul can only be killed by irony? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/30 "2004-12-15T20:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] What does distract from what is an otherwise great movie is all that bullshit with Legolas acting like he’s freakin Tony Hawk or something. I also found the constant body-count competition between Legolas and Gimli annoying as well. Sorry guys…all this “War of the Ring” stuff boring you? I think: Legolas’ character in the book is pretty thin. The writers wanted to make him more interesting, so they took the concept of Elvish agility (which is book-based) and ran with it. I’m ok with that. The body-count competition is also book-based, but expanded upon for the movies. > [@](#): > > could someone tell me why it was so easy for her to kill the Nazgul king? Basically, he tosses that mace around for awhile. Says “no man can kill me”. She pulls off her helmet and says “I’m no man…biatch…” He replies “…ah…well played…” and she stabs him in the face (or where his face would be) causing him to crumple like a Coke can. So Nazgul can only be killed by irony? Not quite…Merry stabbed him in the leg first, incapacitating him. Eowyn delivers the fatal blow. So the prophecy was that he could not be killed by any living man, which does not include Women & Hobbits. He wasn’t killed by irony, but by legalese. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/31 "2004-12-15T20:58:33Z")
> [@Miss Mapp](#): > > Thank you–I thought that Isildur planted the White Tree in the courtyard when the city was Minas Anor, but since I’m at work, I don’t have the opportunity to check it right now. (Also, I wasn’t quite sure if the city’s old name was Minas Anor or Ithil; I get them mixed up sometimes.) He would have had to…Isildur died long before the city became Minas Tirith (Minas Anor = Minas Tirith c. TA 2002, Isildur died at the end of the Second Age, roughly 2000 years prior). Minas Anor was called so because it was Anarion’s capital. The land surrounding the city and off to the west was called Anoríen, after the city. His co-ruler, Isildur, ruled from Minas Ithil (Isil=Ithil…it’s a dialect thing between Quenya and Sindarin). The surrounding area and off to the east was called Ithilien (and is still called so during the time of the War of the Ring, cf. the Rangers of Ithilien), after that city. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/32 "2004-12-15T22:19:45Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > The same thought crossed my mind – perhaps this is why the scene wasn’t used; Gandalf was overly wimpy. > > But the difference between WK at Weathertop and WK at Gondor is a Tolkien-based, not a Jackson flaw. I read somewhere in Unfinished Tales that the Nazgul were “reduced” by Sauron since they were searching for the ring. Their fear aura (their main power in the book) would work against them since they were in disguise and bribing people like Farmer Maggot. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/33 "2004-12-16T01:04:29Z")
Although they didn’t make the Denethor/Palantir connection explicitly, I think that it was made much more obvious in the EE that he’s being manipulated by the Enemy. In the extended “Pyre of Denethor” scene, Denethor has a longer speech about the shadow in the East and the hopelessness of the fight. This immediately made me think of Saruman in FOTR, where he says almost the same thing to Gandalf before he flings him up on the roof. Two men, both powerful and respected, go just a little bit crazy and start saying the same things about how Sauron is unbeatable because they’ve seen what will happen. For me, that hints that their madness may have the same underlying cause. One complaint, though… the drinking game. How useless was that? And was the term “game over” ever even used before Pac-Man came out? :rolleyes: But overall, I think the EE added a lot to the movie. The story flowed so much better with the additions. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/34 "2004-12-16T02:17:36Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Not quite…Merry stabbed him in the leg first, incapacitating him. Eowyn delivers the fatal blow. So the prophecy was that he could not be killed by any living man, which does not include Women & Hobbits. He wasn’t killed by irony, but by legalese. To elaborate just a bit on this correct answer, Merry stabbed the Witch-King with a blade forged ages ago in Arnor, by Aragorn’s ancestors, whose chief foe at the time was the Witch-King. JRRT states in the book that no other blade could have delivered such a bitter blow to the Nazgul, as the blade was wrought with spells for his downfall. This was described as unravelling the necromancy which bound his undead self together, and allowed Eowyn to deliver a mortal blow. Merry got the blade back on the Barrow-Downs, from a burial mound within the old Kingdom of Arnor. Of course, this bit of info got neglected in the film version. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/35 "2004-12-16T02:29:46Z")
> [@Miss Mapp](#): > > Thank you–I thought that Isildur planted the White Tree in the courtyard when the city was Minas Anor, but since I’m at work, I don’t have the opportunity to check it right now. (Also, I wasn’t quite sure if the city’s old name was Minas Anor or Ithil; I get them mixed up sometimes.) Just to elaborate a bit more on this query ( **Jayjay** certainly has his portion right): Isildur, eldest son of Elendil, co-ruler of Gondor, and heir to the throne of Arnor and the High Kingship of all Numenorians: His name means Servant of the Moon. Founded Minas Ithil, Tower of the Rising Moon circa 3320, Second age. Fell to Sauron for a time circa 3430. Regained after Sauron’s defeat. Fell to the Nazgul 2002 Third age, renamed Minas Morgul, Tower of Sorcery. Anarion, second son of Elendil, and co-ruler of Gondor: His name means Son of the Sun. Founded Minas Anor, Tower of the Setting Sun circa 3320, Second age. Renamed Minas Tirith, Tower of the Guard, in 2002 Second age, when Minas Ithil fell. And I got my deluxe ROTK EE yesterday! No time to watch yet, but soon! The model is cool, but the road from the 5th level to the 6th level is missing! I’m so distraught! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/36 "2004-12-16T02:33:59Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Merry got the blade back on the Barrow-Downs, from a burial mound within the old Kingdom of Arnor. > > Of course, this bit of info got neglected in the film version. You’re being too nice. It wasn’t neglected. It was deliberately pruned. (Qadgop knows this all already, but for the benefit of others…) The scene referred to by Qadgop comes after the hobbits leave Tom Bombadil’s (who is a whole 'nother argument. There are days I can see both sides of the “Tom had to be left out of the movies” argument at the same time. Talk about a headache!) house and start toward Bree. They’re ensnared by the sorcery of the barrowwights and captured. Bombadil sings them free and gives them the weapons out of the barrow that they carry throughout the rest of the story (except for Sting…Frodo gets that from Bilbo as the movie shows). Of course, once they removed Bombadil, they don’t have a rescuer from the wights. So that scene’s out. And thus, Aragorn has to give them their weapons. Of course, if you were feeling charitable, you could say that the weapons Aragorn gives them come from a hidden cache of ancient Arnorian armaments that have been preserved for millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/37 "2004-12-16T02:52:08Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > So the prophecy was that he could not be killed by any living man, which does not include Women & Hobbits. He wasn’t killed by irony, but by legalese. The relevant caselaw being _Macbeth v. Three Weird Sisters._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/38 "2004-12-16T03:01:17Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The relevant caselaw being _Macbeth v. Three Weird Sisters._ 😃 Wrong universe. You’re obviously thinking of Erchamion v. Carcharoth. In the absence of both the defendant and the plaintiff, both being decedent, award was made of one Silmaril to the legal authority present, one Elu Thingol, alias Elwë Singollo, self-styled King of Beleriand. The fact that the awardee was married into the family of the judges was considered irrelevant and stricken from the record. History does not record the appeal filed by the plaintiff upon being resurrected some short time later, but seeing as how he subsequently married into the family of the awardee, it appears it was withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/39 "2004-12-16T03:05:13Z")
And you seriously don’t want me to go into a description of the caselaw behind the incident when a different branch of the awardee’s family pressed their claim to the Silmaril…talk about your “no controlling legal authority”! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637/40 "2004-12-16T03:05:41Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > To elaborate just a bit on this correct answer, Merry stabbed the Witch-King with a blade forged ages ago in Arnor, by Aragorn’s ancestors, whose chief foe at the time was the Witch-King. JRRT states in the book that no other blade could have delivered such a bitter blow to the Nazgul, as the blade was wrought with spells for his downfall. This was described as unravelling the necromancy which bound his undead self together, and allowed Eowyn to deliver a mortal blow. That makes more sense than being killed by irony or estrogen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comments-on-lotr-rotk-ee/279637.md?page=3)