# Commercial Establishment Refusing to Provide Message They Object to
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 27, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860 "2016-10-27T17:24:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/1 "2016-10-27T17:24:02Z")
This is from Northern Ireland: [Ashers Bakery lose appeal in “gay cake” discrimination case](http://www.irishlegal.com/5667/ashers-bakery-lose-appeal-in-gay-cake-discrimination-case/)
> [@](#):
>
> The Court of Appeal has found that, by refusing to make a cake supporting same sex marriage, Ashers Baking Company directly discriminated against a man on the grounds of sexual orientation contrary to the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations (NI) 2006 and on the grounds of religious and political belief contrary to the Fair Employment and Treatment (NI) Order 1998, upholding the 2015 decision of District Judge Brownlie.
>
> Furthermore, the Court found that the relevant legislation was not incompatible with articles 9, 10 or 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
> [@](#):
>
> In May 2014, Gareth Lee placed an order with Ashers for a customised cake with a colour picture of “Bert and Ernie” (the logo for QueerSpace) with the headline caption “Support Gay Marriage” to mark the end of “Northern Ireland Anti-homophobic Week” to mark the political momentum towards same-sex marriage legislation.
>
> Ashers accepted the order, but subsequently telephoned Mr Lee indicating that the order could not be fulfilled as the bakery was a “Christian business” and that the order should not have been accepted. Ashers accepted that the order was cancelled because of their religious beliefs as they are opposed to a change in the law regarding gay marriage which they regard as sinful. Mr Lee was given a refund and he was able to secure a similar cake from another outlet in time for the event.
I’m curious as to how the US courts would rule on this (I would guess there would be some free speech issues involved). But I’m a bit surprised that even Irish courts would fail to make a distinction between the people and the message.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/2 "2016-10-27T17:57:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> …
>
> I’m curious as to how the US courts would rule on this (I would guess there would be some free speech issues involved). But I’m a bit surprised that even Irish courts would fail to make a distinction between the people and the message.
Here you go:
> **[Court Rules Bakery Illegally Discriminated Against Gay Couple](https://www.aclu-co.org/en/news/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple)**
>
> A Colorado judge today determined that a Lakewood bakery unlawfully discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to sell them a wedding cake.
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/3 "2016-10-27T18:00:03Z")
I’m not sure what your point is in that link. I was aware of that case. But I think there’s a step from being forced to make a wedding cake for a gay couple and being forced to make a cake which explicitly advocates a particular message.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/4 "2016-10-27T18:43:52Z")
Yeah, this is real can-of-worms/slippery-slope territory.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/5 "2016-10-27T18:51:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> I’m not sure what your point is in that link. I was aware of that case. But I think there’s a step from being forced to make a wedding cake for a gay couple and being forced to make a cake which explicitly advocates a particular message.
Same here. It’s a custom product. Shouldn’t be able to refuse to sell standard products to someone, or the same custom product sold to others, but they should be able to limit the customizations they will provide. There was some sort of flap about a Hitler cake a few years back. Free speech includes not speaking too. Not that I think much of the bakery either, but rights include rights for people I don’t like also.
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### Author:  [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/6 "2016-10-27T20:20:47Z")
Christians also tried to fight segregation because it went against God’s will. They used the same ‘Christian morality’ to argue in favour of continuing slavery.
Their past history of invoking Christianity ought to disqualify them from ever being taken seriously, in my opinion.
It didn’t fly then, when there was, a de facto, religion of state. It sure as hell ain’t gonna fly now, in my opinion.
But perhaps the best solution would be anyone wishing to discriminate in such a way MUST post a large sign on their door making it clear they do so.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/7 "2016-10-27T20:30:22Z")
Did they rule this on the basis of sexual orientation or religion?
If a straight couple ordered a customized “Support DOMA” cake from a gay bakery, could the gay bakers refuse?
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/8 "2016-10-27T20:33:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Same here. It’s a custom product. Shouldn’t be able to refuse to sell standard products to someone, or the same custom product sold to others
This, I think, is the critical issue, and where the court went wrong.
If the bakery provided chocolate cakes to everyone, except gays, that’s discrimination.
But this bakery, assumedly, doesn’t provide “Support Gay Marriage” cakes to anyone - straight, gay, or otherwise. So it’s not discrimination. All of their customers are being treated the same, in that regard.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/9 "2016-10-27T21:05:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> This, I think, is the critical issue, and where the court went wrong.
>
> If the bakery provided chocolate cakes to everyone, except gays, that’s discrimination.
>
> But this bakery, assumedly, doesn’t provide “Support Gay Marriage” cakes to anyone - straight, gay, or otherwise. So it’s not discrimination. All of their customers are being treated the same, in that regard.
Wasn’t that the arguments by the bakers in the Oregon case? And the arguments of anti-marriage people during the Prop 8 California case? I’ve always heard it as “Its not discrimination because we’re saying all men can’t marry men, not just gay men”
Seems like its exactly analogous to the US case. The underlying point the bakery is trying to do is use semantics to pretend they wouldn’t make those types of cakes for anyone, but the courts saw through that and said the purpose was to discriminate against gays. I’m glad they ruled against the bakery.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/10 "2016-10-27T21:16:28Z")
So you could go to any creator of custom content and compel them to produce anything that is tangentially related to race, religion, or sexual desire? Yeah who didn’t see this coming?
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/11 "2016-10-27T22:21:33Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#):
>
> Wasn’t that the arguments by the bakers in the Oregon case?
Was that about a message written on a cake? We’re not talking about an abstract like “it sends the wrong message to supply a cake for a gay wedding”.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/12 "2016-10-27T22:51:32Z")
They shoulda refused to draw a Bert & Ernie on the basis of not wanting to engage in trademark infringement. They probably would’ve won and Queerspace might incidentally end up having to stop using Bert and Ernie images.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/13 "2016-10-27T22:59:11Z")
Doesn’t the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) apply here? Add to it the issue centers around a protected class (discrimination).
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/14 "2016-10-27T23:26:37Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> So you could go to any creator of custom content and compel them to produce anything that is tangentially related to race, religion, or sexual desire? Yeah who didn’t see this coming?
Lol, keep trying 😃
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Was that about a message written on a cake? We’re not talking about an abstract like “it sends the wrong message to supply a cake for a gay wedding”.
I think that as long as they create custom cakes, it would be discrimination if they don’t create a custom cake specifically for a gay-theme. I don’t know if Ireland has protected classes like we do in the US, but I would bet that the bakery would be in the right if the customers had asked for, say, a Hitler cake instead. Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of who you are at birth. Like race, it should never be used as the basis for discrimination. That’s why the bakers are wrong here
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/15 "2016-10-27T23:50:38Z")
When I’m confused, I think about Nazis.
Let’s say Adolf Jones and Eva Smith are getting married. They’re known neo-Nazis, and it’s pretty clear they’re gonna have a Nazi-themed wedding. They inexplicably ask a Jewish baker for a normal wedding cake. Can they be refused, based on their gross theme? (Let’s call it an [Asatru wedding](https://thinkprogress.org/the-new-religion-of-choice-for-white-supremacists-8af2a69a3440#.d8t6vn9af) to get a religious bent).
I don’t think so–or at least, it’s a complicated question untangling the religious aspect from the political aspect.
But let’s say they ask that same baker for a cake decorated with swastikas. Can he refuse then?
Absolutely.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/16 "2016-10-28T00:00:00Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#):
>
> I’m glad they ruled against the bakery.
I understand your applause of the decision, but this is just as easily something that could/will work against gay people as for them. For instance, as mentioned above, what if a straight couple demands that a gay bakery bake a pro-traditional-marriage customized cake for them?
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/17 "2016-10-28T05:08:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> When I’m confused, I think about Nazis.
>
> Let’s say Adolf Jones and Eva Smith are getting married. They’re known neo-Nazis, and it’s pretty clear they’re gonna have a Nazi-themed wedding. They inexplicably ask a Jewish baker for a normal wedding cake. Can they be refused, based on their gross theme? (Let’s call it an [Asatru wedding](https://thinkprogress.org/the-new-religion-of-choice-for-white-supremacists-8af2a69a3440#.d8t6vn9af) to get a religious bent).
>
> I don’t think so–or at least, it’s a complicated question untangling the religious aspect from the political aspect.
>
> But let’s say they ask that same baker for a cake decorated with swastikas. Can he refuse then?
>
> Absolutely.
Why can’t the state compel them?
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/18 "2016-10-28T05:18:47Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#):
>
> I think that as long as they create custom cakes, it would be discrimination if they don’t create a custom cake specifically for a gay-theme. I don’t know if Ireland has protected classes like we do in the US, but I would bet that the bakery would be in the right if the customers had asked for, say, a Hitler cake instead. Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of who you are at birth. Like race, it should never be used as the basis for discrimination. That’s why the bakers are wrong here
What if the customers aren’t gay? We’re talking about a written message here, do you think they should be compelled by the state to write anything on a cake just because they’ll write some things on a cake? I don’t. If the writing was done by a machine that anyone could come in the store and use by typing in their message I’d say it’s wrong to disallow that to be used for certain messages but this is a case of compelling a person to write something they find objectionable, even if I find their objection objectionable I don’t think that should be done.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2016, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/19 "2016-10-28T05:25:13Z")
Missed the edit window:
I consider this a free speech issue, not a religious one. If they don’t like gay people they can go to their hateful church and hate gay people all they like but they can’t refuse to sell them something they’ll sell to anyone else.
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### Author:  [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commercial-establishment-refusing-to-provide-message-they-object-to/769860/20 "2016-10-28T05:47:20Z")
> [@elbows](#):
>
> Christians also tried to fight segregation because it went against God’s will. They used the same ‘Christian morality’ to argue in favour of continuing slavery.
What you actually mean is that wicked people who falsely called themselves Christians did not obey the Word of God.
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