# Common Core Math **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118 "2018-09-10T19:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/101 "2018-09-11T21:12:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … How do you solve something like 299 x 7?.. > …That second method is a lot wordier, but I bet it’s very close to how a lot of y’all solved it in your heads. > > The goal of common-core style math work is to get more kids to be able to play with numbers like that. The memorization method won’t get kids there, but the deep understanding of multiplication that we’re working toward will. I disagree. Memorization, brute force memorization, is how they teach math in places like Korea, Japan and Taiwan. They get to 229_7=300_7-7 much faster and earlier than American students growing up through the common core system. The memorization method is like language immersion. They are exposed to numbers to the point they start to become fluent in them. I have heard those exact words “deep understanding” from my kid’s teacher as they tell me that 3 rows of 7 is wrong and 7 rows of 3 is right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/102 "2018-09-11T21:16:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I disagree. Memorization, brute force memorization, is how they teach math in places like Korea, Japan and Taiwan. They get to 229_7=300_7-7 much faster and earlier than American students growing up through the common core system. The memorization method is like language immersion. They are exposed to numbers to the point they start to become fluent in them. I think you’re wrong on most of these claims. Cite? > [@](#): > > I have heard those exact words “deep understanding” from my kid’s teacher as they tell me that 3 rows of 7 is wrong and 7 rows of 3 is right. …right. Assuming you’re telling the truth in context, your kid’s teacher lacks a deep understanding of math. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/103 "2018-09-11T22:22:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I disagree. Memorization, brute force memorization, is how they teach math in places like Korea, Japan and Taiwan. They get to 229_7=300_7-7 much faster and earlier than American students growing up through the common core system. Your math is off. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/104 "2018-09-11T23:12:36Z")
FWIW, the Russian School of Mathematics, a popular after-school program which started in Massachusetts and has now branched out, maintains that, “Memorization is temporary, understanding is forever.” [Award Winning Approach to Math Education | RSM](https://www.russianschool.com/about-us/our-approach) [This](https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/) site claims: [INDENT]Yet data from the 13 million students who took PISA tests showed that the lowest achieving students worldwide were those who used a memorization strategy – those who thought of math as a set of methods to remember and who approached math by trying to memorize steps. The highest achieving students were those who thought of math as a set of connected, big ideas. The U.S. has more memorizers than most other countries in the world. [/INDENT] [https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/](https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/) There’s a link to the OECD sponsored report, which I haven’t read. [Key findings - PISA](http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-volume-i.htm) I’ve changed my mind! US math teaching sux!!! :D:D ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/105 "2018-09-11T23:26:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The U.S. has more memorizers than most other countries in the world. I know you cited a professional organization that studies these issues, but why should I believe them over Damuri Ajashi’s gut? DA is to math curricula what SlackerInc is to science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/106 "2018-09-12T14:01:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think you’re wrong on most of these claims. Cite? I’ve already provided a cite for the brute force memorization techniques used in places like korea/taiwan/japan in the singapore article. I also know from personal experience. By 2nd grade you can sing the multiplication tables from 2 to 9 as easily as you sing the alphabet. By 3rd grade you have a reasonably good understanding of what you are singing. I don’t think there is a study that shows that particular equation being solved by American kids vs Korean/Japanese/Taiwanese kids but it is almost universally agreed that they are better at math. I would bet a lot of money that the average east asian kid will perform better on almost any math test than the average american kid. A recent study shows that Korean third graders outperformed the U.S. students in creating multiplication word problems, constructing a number sentence to represent a word problem, and identifying real life situations in which they utilize multiplication skills. U.S. students gave better definitions of multiplication, yet they were not able to apply this knowledge to creating a multiplication word problem and a number sentence that corresponded with the problem. I am NOT saying that the East Asian method is the best possible method. I think that with a sufficient number of good, teachers a combination of concept and memory would be best. But if I was looking for a method of teaching multiplication that almost any idiot could teach, it would be the Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese method. I don’t know how you could fuck that up. ftp://ftp.math.ethz.ch/EMIS/proceedings/PME31/2/161.pdf > [@](#): > > …right. Assuming you’re telling the truth in context, your kid’s teacher lacks a deep understanding of math. You keep injecting these statements that imply that I’m just making shit up. Why would I be making shit up? Have you ever seen me bitch about this topic before? I would love for common core to be a universally good thing. In practice, from what I have seen, it seems to be geared towards teaching to the lowest common denominator. It seems to instill a contempt for memorization in the teachers and administrators and “not real teaching” or “not real learning” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/107 "2018-09-12T14:16:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > FWIW, the Russian School of Mathematics, a popular after-school program which started in Massachusetts and has now branched out, maintains that, “Memorization is temporary, understanding is forever.” [Award Winning Approach to Math Education | RSM](https://www.russianschool.com/about-us/our-approach) That’s just marketing. There is a Russian School here in Reston and I’m pretty sure they rely on multiplication tables (or "math facts). What it doesn’t do is emphasize memorization of mathematical algorithms. For example, it doesn’t just have kids memorize how to solve quadratic equations, it shows kids why the algorithms for solving quadratic equations works and then kids can apply the algorithm in unorthodox situations. But memorization of the multiplication table does seem to be part of the curriculum. > **[5 Fun Summer Math Activities to Do With Your kids](https://blog.russianschool.com/5-fun-summer-math-activities-to-do-with-your-kids)** > > activities to do with your kids in the summer “Practice multiplication tables! Create a routine: for the first 2 minutes (and no more!) of every trip you take, review the table. Make sure to start with small numbers. In two minutes, you can ask 15 questions! If all answers are delivered within 5 seconds, your child wins!” Does that seem like conceptual math to you? > [@](#): > > [This](https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/) site claims: [INDENT]Yet data from the 13 million students who took PISA tests showed that the lowest achieving students worldwide were those who used a memorization strategy – those who thought of math as a set of methods to remember and who approached math by trying to memorize steps. The highest achieving students were those who thought of math as a set of connected, big ideas. > > The U.S. has more memorizers than most other countries in the world. [/INDENT] [https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/](https://hechingerreport.org/memorizers-are-the-lowest-achievers-and-other-common-core-math-surprises/) > > There’s a link to the OECD sponsored report, which I haven’t read. [http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-volume-i.htm](http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-volume-i.htm) > > I’ve changed my mind! US math teaching sux!!! :D:D But probably not for the reasons you think. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/108 "2018-09-12T14:23:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know you cited a professional organization that studies these issues, but why should I believe them over Damuri Ajashi’s gut? > > DA is to math curricula what SlackerInc is to science fiction. Because PISA never says what MtM thinks it says. The PISA report DOES NOT undermine the notion of memorizing the multiplication tables in favor of gaining some “deeper understanding” of multiplication. It is criticizing the memorization of algorithms. You can teach a kid the 4 steps to solving a quadratic equation but that kid isn’t learning math, they are learning an algorithm. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/109 "2018-09-12T14:24:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know you cited a professional organization that studies these issues, but why should I believe them over Damuri Ajashi’s gut? > > DA is to math curricula what SlackerInc is to science fiction. So what’s the deal with slackerinc and sci fi? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/110 "2018-09-12T21:02:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’ve already provided a cite for the brute force memorization techniques used in places like korea/taiwan/japan in the singapore article. I also know from personal experience. By 2nd grade you can sing the multiplication tables from 2 to 9 as easily as you sing the alphabet. By 3rd grade you have a reasonably good understanding of what you are singing. Your claim is that “brute force memorization is how they teach math in” various countries. If you want to revise you claim to “is one part of how they teach math,” it’s not longer a weird claim. > [@](#): > > I don’t think there is a study that shows that particular equation being solved by American kids vs Korean/Japanese/Taiwanese kids but it is almost universally agreed that they are better at math. I would bet a lot of money that the average east asian kid will perform better on almost any math test than the average american kid. Actually, there’s some evidence that the United States brings different demographics to the tests–that some countries (China at least) game the system by only offering tests in large cities where the educational infrastructure is stronger. In any case, Common Core is a **response** to the perceived superiority of the Singapore/Japanese model, not a **cause** of the difference. Complaints about how US schools are failing in teaching math go back to at least the days of Sputnik, and the complaints from the 1980s spurred US educational scientists to study what was happening overseas; Common Core is to a large extent the result of their research. As for your study: did you see that the US students were using a curriculum published in 2001? Do you see the implications for using this study to trash Common Core? > [@](#): > > You keep injecting these statements that imply that I’m just making shit up. Why would I be making shit up? Have you ever seen me bitch about this topic before? I would love for common core to be a universally good thing. In practice, from what I have seen, it seems to be geared towards teaching to the lowest common denominator. It seems to instill a contempt for memorization in the teachers and administrators and “not real teaching” or “not real learning” I don’t think you’re deliberately making shit up, but I also don’t think you’re making much effort to give us a rounded and fair account of events. You seem pretty ignorant about what you’re talking about (and this is my wheelhouse, I’ve taught third grade math for 8 years and have been to countless hours of training on Common Core methods and can name-drop theorists in the field and can speak intelligently about different packaged curricula), and more importantly you don’t let your ignorance stop you from opining. Your latest statement about how it teaches toward the lowest common denominator is a great example. Talk to any teacher about how it goes down: the time when we drop our common core ideology is when we’re dealing with kids who just can’t wrap their brains around math, and as a stopgap measure we’ll teach them the old, easier way, where they just memorize a method instead of building that conceptual understanding. It’s better than nothing, but we’re never satisfied with that as a solution. Common Core’s demands are far, FAR more demanding than the methods traditionally used in US math education. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/111 "2018-09-12T21:03:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what’s the deal with slackerinc and sci fi? [Watch him shit up the swimming pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=860791), and watch me swim in his trail like a goddamned idiot telling him to stop while he giggles and sprays shit. Modern science fiction is my other wheelhouse :). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/112 "2018-09-12T21:09:36Z")
One more quick post. You want an excellent, rigorous, free online curriculum for teaching Common Core math standards? Check out [Engage NY](https://www.engageny.org/). [Here’s the extensive unit that introduces multiplication in third grade](https://www.engageny.org/resource/grade-3-mathematics-module-1). It’s got a great mix of memorization practice with methodical conceptual construction. I highly recommend it, and use it whenever I’m allowed to. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/113 "2018-09-12T21:16:59Z")
Re: Common Core and times tables: > [@Strassia](#): > > As others have said, I think you are confusing one badly written worksheet with the whole of Common Core. [Common Core Third Grade](http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/3/OA/) requirements for multiplication: > > > [@](#): > > > > […] > > By the end of Grade 3, know from memory all products of two one-digit numbers. > > […] ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/114 "2018-09-12T21:28:01Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Re: Common Core and times tables: That doesn’t count. Common Core only teaches what his kid got from school and nothing else. On a more serious note, the only difference in memorization that I noticed is that in my school our times table went up to 12, not just 1-9. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/115 "2018-09-12T21:44:22Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > On a more serious note, the only difference in memorization that I noticed is that in my school our times table went up to 12, not just 1-9. Hopefully it’s OK to take a tangent, since we’re a long way into the topic. In the late 60’s, early 70’s I attended a small Catholic grade school in a Minnesota farming community. We learned the times table from 1-9. The kids in public school (also small), learned 1-12. This struck me as odd at the time (and still does) - if you can do 1-9 and understand how to apply it to calculate 11\*12 - what was the point in learning 11 and 12 (10 being simple enough in any case)? Why not go all the all to 20 or some other arbitrary number? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/116 "2018-09-12T21:59:21Z")
[Nigel Tufnel] These go to eleven. [/NT] ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/117 "2018-09-12T22:26:32Z")
Kumon made me do 13, 17, and 19. Assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/118 "2018-09-12T22:42:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > “Practice multiplication tables! Create a routine: for the first 2 minutes (and no more!) of every trip you take, review the table. Make sure to start with small numbers. In two minutes, you can ask 15 questions! If all answers are delivered within 5 seconds, your child wins!” > > Does that seem like conceptual math to you? Ok, we’ve established that memorizing times tables is unsurprisingly part of Common Core. Question: are you aware of any school district that believes that memorizing times tables is unimportant? (I learned my 10x10 times tables in 4th grade. I’m pretty sure multiplication was introduced before I tackled that though. At some point someone nudged me up to 12x12. I’m currently unaware of 13x13. Ok, I just did it in my head. Still.) > [@Folacin](#): > > what was the point in learning 11 and 12 (10 being simple enough in any case)? Why not go all the all to 20 or some other arbitrary number? Well 10s and 11s are pretty easy. Basically you only have to memorize 11x11=121, and you’ve mastered 2 rows/columns. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/119 "2018-09-12T22:55:58Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Hopefully it’s OK to take a tangent, since we’re a long way into the topic. > > In the late 60’s, early 70’s I attended a small Catholic grade school in a Minnesota farming community. We learned the times table from 1-9. > > The kids in public school (also small), learned 1-12. This struck me as odd at the time (and still does) - if you can do 1-9 and understand how to apply it to calculate 11\*12 - what was the point in learning 11 and 12 (10 being simple enough in any case)? Why not go all the all to 20 or some other arbitrary number? How else are you going to know how much are in one gross? Seriously, I have no idea why they went up to 12. IIRC we were only required to memorize up to 10 but all the printed material we had listed them up to 12. Even in the dark days of 1980s elementary school, we weren’t expected to memorize them by rote, but to do thousands of practice problems over the course of the school year and memorize them by immersion. Which we did, for the most part. The common core standards are not new. We were doing the same kind of conceptual stuff back then to learn how arithmetic really works, it just wasn’t as formalized. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118/120 "2018-09-12T23:03:34Z")
12 is handy given the prevalence of dozens as a unit, and for converting between feet and inches. 11 is useless but, as noted, is dead simple anyways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-core-math/821118.md?page=7)