# Common for mothers to have sex with their sons in 0 AD britain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200 "2016-01-25T20:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/21 "2016-01-26T05:30:08Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > … but it does claim that this practise was carried out at least in some tribes. … I wonder how, given the lack of a genuine written history of that era, anything being reported of that nature would be reliable. Is there ever a time in history where incest was accepted? To me, it’s too strange to believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/22 "2016-01-26T05:36:42Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I think you should read a post thread before quoting from it. I don’t see how he is wrong. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > I wonder how, given the lack of a genuine written history of that era, anything being reported of that nature would be reliable. Is there ever a time in history where incest was accepted? To me, it’s too strange to believe. Not that I think the OP’s source is credible, but Egypt? Not generally, but for the Pharaoh. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/23 "2016-01-26T05:38:32Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If it was done “once as an initiation ceremony” “at the age of puberty” then there would never be any unplanned pregnancies. There is a considerable gap between the start of puberty and the onset of menarche when a woman can become pregnant. In our society that gap is about 3 years. In some pre-industrial societies it was probably shorter, but still well in excess of 6 months. “Never” is too strong a word. It would also depend on how “onset of puberty” is defined. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/24 "2016-01-26T05:38:51Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I think you should read a post thread before quoting from it. I’m pretty sure **coremelt** _has_ read the whole thread. **marshmallow** ’s Post 16 refers to both types. An unplanned pregancy could certainly mean a mother getting pregnant, which is the obvious risk that comes along with the practice described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/25 "2016-01-26T06:45:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see how he is wrong. > > Not that I think the OP’s source is credible, but Egypt? Not generally, but for the Pharaoh. I think quite a number of ancient culture with absolute hereditary leaders would permit brother-sister marriages; for one thing, it reduced the number of different family threads and thus reduced the number of strong claimants to the throne. There would be less outsiders married to a princess and thus having a quasi-legitimate claim to rule (backed, of course by the rule force) Also a lot of questionable slanders about various groups are usually political or xenophobic motivated slanders propagated by their enemies. From what I understand, slurs like this were common in roman times. (Wasn’t there something about Herod and his sister?) ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/26 "2016-01-26T07:30:29Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Right, well it was the book “The Year Zero” by Kleinman, Matthew; Davies, Nicholas. I don’t have a copy of this book now but it does claim that this practise was carried out at least in some tribes. Anyone got a copy and know what their source for claiming this was? According to the [reviews on Amazon](http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Year-Zero-Matthew-Kleinman/dp/1857823540), the book’s claims aren’t referenced to individual sources. There is only an omnibus bibliography containing many dubious and out-of-date books. Some selected quotes from the reviews: > [@](#): > > This book is badly written and poorly researched by two authours who seem to have no experience of the ancient world. In fact Dr Kleinman is a doctor of genetics which perhaps explains the complete lack of evidence used to support any of the arguments made in this book (footnotes are not to be found anywhere). The complete ignorance of interrogating sources is beyond beleif, as a previous reviewer has already commented everything is taken at face value. My worst fears where then confirmed by a quick glance at the bibliography which is impressively ancient. I am pretty certain that research into ancient Britain was not completed by 1959… The utter lack of basic levels of research and scholarship provide perhaps the greatest mystery of the Year 2000, how did this get published. > [@](#): > > Just a recycled mish-mash of historical sources, many of them of highly dubious accuracy. Eg Julius Caesar’s and early Greek accounts of Britain mixed up with early Christian propaganda and all taken at face value. No attempt to sustain a coherent viewpoint and many gross innaccuracies such as the Druids being responsible for building Stonehenge(! ) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/27 "2016-01-26T08:02:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not that I think the OP’s source is credible, but Egypt? Not generally, but for the Pharaoh. In Roman Egypt, at least at certain periods brother-sister incest was widely accepted, even preferred, as a solution to the economic problem of fragmenting land holdings. In some districts, around a quarter of all marriages were between full siblings, as attested by census returns. It’s perhaps the best-studied example of an exception to the incest taboo. [cite](http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/humor/random_scholar/roman-egypt-brother-sister-marriage-2008.html) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/28 "2016-01-26T09:28:20Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > According to the [reviews on Amazon](http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Year-Zero-Matthew-Kleinman/dp/1857823540), the book’s claims aren’t referenced to individual sources. There is only an omnibus bibliography containing many dubious and out-of-date books. Yeah ok fine, so it was probably some tall tale told by a roman soldier returning from Brittania over a flagon of ale, then credulously written down in Roman histories. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/29 "2016-01-26T09:44:30Z")
Humans beings love to accuse each other of sexual deviancy. We also love to report hearsay as fact. Sexual initiation has been done in several cultures, so the story is not totally implausible. Just that the incest bit might be. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/30 "2016-01-26T15:20:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yeah ok fine, so it was probably some tall tale told by a roman soldier returning from Brittania over a flagon of ale, then credulously written down in Roman histories. After a few generations of liberal embellishment about a mother kissing her infant son goodnight, something about incest and a teenaged son was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/31 "2016-01-26T15:30:08Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Humans beings love to accuse each other of sexual deviancy. We also love to report hearsay as fact. > > Sexual initiation has been done in several cultures, so the story is not totally implausible. Just that the incest bit might be. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > After a few generations of liberal embellishment about a mother kissing her infant son goodnight, something about incest and a teen aged son was inevitable. I think Gibbons in “Decline and Fall…” has a discussion of how a decent part of the depraved behavior of Roman Emperors was not true or significant exaggeration, repetition of questionable gossip and innuendo, it was simply the slander of political enemies - who were prominent Roman intellectuals, so that writing was preserved along with much of their more solid works. Similarly, it seems many of the explorers or armies marching into unfamiliar lands made up fanciful slurs about the people they encountered. There were several threads here that dug into what the explorers wrote about New World inhabitants. Cannibalism was a typical accusation, thus justifying many of the genocidal activities required to convert the heathens and meanwhile push them off their land. I suspect that cannibalism was a favourite because it was more abhorrent, and easier to discuss in detail in prudish society… this leaving sexual accusations with less discussion, less detail, and less opportunities to verify at the source. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/32 "2016-01-26T15:47:44Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Right, well it was the book “The Year Zero” by Kleinman, Matthew; Davies, Nicholas. I don’t have a copy of this book now but it does claim that this practise was carried out at least in some tribes. Anyone got a copy and know what their source for claiming this was? I’m not familiar with the book, but I am very familiar with the evidence for Britain in this period, barring some of the archaeology. I assure you that there is no evidence for this practice. There is no corroborating evidence from anywhere in Celtic tradition. There are a few accounts of incest in the mythological tales, but incest in mythology is not evidence of incest in practice. The idea of parent-child sexual initiation rituals isn’t completely unbelievable for any given human culture, but it’s close, and for pre-Roman Britain it pretty much is completely unbelievable. You don’t seem willing to accept this, weighing a remembered book which has a poor reputation above all else. It would be neat if it were true, but it’s just not. There is (literally) more evidence for headhunting, human sacrifice, and cannibalism, on which the scholarly consensus is (respectively) quite possibly, maybe, and probably just Roman slander. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/33 "2016-01-26T16:03:37Z")
Sexual initiation has occurred, including ritual sexual initiation. Mandela described his tribes intiation and was quite miffed that he did not get it. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/34 "2016-01-26T16:04:29Z")
I read somewhere that sine schools in Japan are so competitive, Japanese moms fellate their sons to relieve stress before big exams, and so they won’t waste time with girlfriends instead of studying. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/35 "2016-01-26T16:13:54Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I read somewhere that sine schools in Japan are so competitive, Japanese moms fellate their sons to relieve stress before big exams, and so they won’t waste time with girlfriends instead of studying. I wish this was posted in a different forum. There’s so much I could say. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/36 "2016-01-26T16:19:39Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I read somewhere that sine schools in Japan are so competitive, Japanese moms fellate their sons to relieve stress before big exams, and so they won’t waste time with girlfriends instead of studying. Since you’ve read that, perhaps you can provide at least one of your sources, preferably not from Literotica. ETA: Or, what Morgenstern said. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/37 "2016-01-26T16:45:07Z")
third ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/38 "2016-01-26T16:46:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sexual initiation has occurred, including ritual sexual initiation. Mandela described his tribes intiation and was quite miffed that he did not get it. Yes, sexual intitation isn’t uncommon. What I’d like a cite for is an example of culturally sanctioned _parent-child_ sexual initation, which I do not believe occurs among humans. I’m prepared to be wrong, but I’ve never seen a reference to it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/39 "2016-01-26T18:18:05Z")
Even in modern-day US, it’s not outlandish to hear about a father taking his son to a professional woman to “make him a man” at a certain age. That would be the equivalent of a sexual rite of passage. But not to the kid’s mom though, unless you’re watching a Jerry Springer rerun. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200/40 "2016-01-26T18:59:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Humans beings love to accuse each other of sexual deviancy. We also love to report hearsay as fact. One of the first things you’ll notice when you read Herodotus, is how every culture in the world, apart from the Greeks (funny, that), practices some variation of pimping out their daughters. Then again, Herodotus also explains that the Persians had learned the much more vanilla and non-deviant sexual practice of man-boy action from the Greeks. At least there’s some hope for the barbarians. As for Romans and incest: As mentioned upthread, that’s an accusation that Romans tend to throw at other Romans that they don’t like. Incest, and baldness. At least that’s the impression I get from Suetonius. The baldness thing is a bit weird, actually. According to Suetonius, Caesar was bald, Caligula was bald (despite being in his mid-twenties), Domitian was bald… Then you look at portraits of these guys, and they don’t look very bald. Historians will say: Aha! That means that they didn’t want to be depicted as bald, which proves that they were very vain, which proves that they were bald! I dunno. I don’t want to knock professional historians, but it seems a bit odd that we’re just taking Suetonius’s word for this stuff, considering that he’s also accusing people of bonking their sisters and mothers. But anyway, I digress… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-for-mothers-to-have-sex-with-their-sons-in-0-ad-britain/744200.md?page=3)