# Common Sense Budget Act **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802 "2006-03-10T06:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/21 "2006-03-10T18:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It would take $60 billion from the $442 billion defense budget, all from programs that are arguably obsolete. It would spend the money on things like public education, child health plans, homeland security, greater energy independence, deficit reduction, etc. Hm. So, essentially we’d take the waste from Defense and pour it into the waste for other (social) programs. This sounds like bread and circus’s to me…as usual. Needless to say I’m far from excited about simply shifting wasted money from one boondoggle to another… Or, pretty much what Renob has been saying (much better than I). -XT ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/22 "2006-03-10T18:45:53Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > The C-130J update is NEEDED for current operations; let alone improvements… > > DD(X) is going to replace the current DDG’s… with a better, faster, less expensive to operate version… > > Talk about short sighted… YES they all require development… but good god; you do NOT want to keep what we currently have… for get not being as good… it is MORE expensive Likewise, the Virginia class SSN’s are meant to be an important step between the older Los Angeles class boats, and the two, or is it three, Seawolf class boats. Even the newest Los Angeles boats are getting a bit long in the tooth. If one wants to argue that having more of the Seawolf boats would be a good idea, that’s fine. But cutting back to only those and cold war era boats seems to be very short-sighted. I have some reservations about the DD(X) program, but that’s because I’m prejudiced against staterooms and false bulkheads. I don’t really question what the DD(X) plans to be able to do… I don’t really know enough about the other programs that this proposed bill is targetting, but based on what I do know I suspect that the other programs are not as wasteful as they may look at first glimpse. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/23 "2006-03-10T19:06:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That list could easily be picked apart, but let me just take one really weak point: > Department of Education: > IMPACT AID > > Are you opposed to children on military bases receiving an education from public schools? If not, who is going to pay for these kids’ education? How would eliminating Impact Aid (and presumably cutting taxes by about $10 for each family in the United States) going to help the children of military families get an education? It is my impression that Impact Aid reimburses counties with large federal installations (military bases and Indian reservations being the most common) for the fact that local property taxes cannot be levied on federal property. Most children on military bases and on reservations are educated in base or reservation facilities, and would presumably continue to be educated there. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/24 "2006-03-10T19:13:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Hm. So, essentially we’d take the waste from Defense and pour it into the waste for other (social) programs. This sounds like bread and circus’s to me…as usual. Needless to say I’m far from excited about simply shifting wasted money from one boondoggle to another… > > Or, pretty much what Renob has been saying (much better than I). > > -XT So basically, it’s impossible for the federal government to do anything successfully. Hell, why don’t we just disband it altogether? Believe it or not, there are actual people who have been helped by federal programs before. I don’t have the energy to look up cites right now (perhaps someone else can help out?), but how about an appeal to logic: Do you really think federal social programs would still exist if none of them were ever successful? This money, while just a fairly small percentage of the defense budget, would be an _enormous_ shot in the arm to these other programs. But, eh, I guess thinking the government actually has the power to _help_ people is just a pipe dream . . . ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/25 "2006-03-10T19:19:09Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > So basically, it’s impossible for the federal government to do anything successfully. Essentially, yes. Government, to over-generalize, is too burdened by rules and regulations and has no incentive to efficiently allocate resources. > [@](#): > > Hell, why don’t we just disband it altogether? I’ll settle for disbanding most of it. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, there are actual people who have been helped by federal programs before. Sure, and there are plenty who are being hurt by the federal government’s high tax rates and oppressive regulations. There are also plenty of people who are hurt by the dependency engendered by social programs. It’s not even a matter of who is helped vs. who is hurt, however. It’s a matter of whether or not the number of people truly helped by a program is worth the expenditure of the huge amount of money it takes to do that. I would say the trade-off is not worth it. > [@](#): > > I don’t have the energy to look up cites right now (perhaps someone else can help out?), but how about an appeal to logic: Do you really think federal social programs would still exist if none of them were ever successful? Every program certainly has its constituency. It’s not a matter of success. It’s a matter of free money. If the feds are handing out free money to a special interest group of which you are a member, you are going to fight very hard when someone tries to cut off that free money. That is why it’s very hard to kill any federal program. > [@](#): > > But, eh, I guess thinking the government actually has the power to _help_ people is just a pipe dream . . . Apparently something we can both agree on. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/26 "2006-03-10T19:34:44Z")
**Renob** , I’ve got to give you credit . . . you really know how to stay on message. I bow before your unshakeable cynicism. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/27 "2006-03-10T19:53:11Z")
Meanwhile, back in the real world… Increasing educational spending is arguably a good idea. Cutting military spending is arguably a good idea. But linking the two together is nothing but political propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/28 "2006-03-10T20:14:26Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > My point is that you don’t improve education by increasing funding for it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/29 "2006-03-10T20:18:39Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > A partial list: Cite? (For any of these programs having been proven to be “wasteful.”) ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/30 "2006-03-10T20:42:55Z")
NAEP Scores are basically flat since 1971:[http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/2004\_sdts.asp](http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/2004_sdts.asp) I’ve already proven that per-pupil spending has doubled. Basically, spending has doubled and scores remain flat. On the cite for the wastefulnes of the government programs listed (and many not listed), their very existence is a waste of money. They are doing things the government has no business doing. I’m not arguing they are inefficient; I’m arguing they are unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/31 "2006-03-10T21:03:30Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Most children on military bases and on reservations are educated in base or reservation facilities, and would presumably continue to be educated there. Impact Aid is available to local educational authorities simply because of the presence of a federal installation – about 250 LEAs receive funds under this formula. However, more than 1,200 LEAs receive funds because children are connected to Federal lands **and** they attend public schools. In comparison, DOD runs about 50 or 60 schools in the entire US, the bulk of them in about four states. So, again: if you want to eliminate Impact Aid, how are kids in those 1,150 other school districts supposed to pay for school? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/32 "2006-03-10T21:17:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Impact Aid is available to local educational authorities simply because of the presence of a federal installation – about 250 LEAs receive funds under this formula. However, more than 1,200 LEAs receive funds because children are connected to Federal lands **and** they attend public schools. > > In comparison, DOD runs about 50 or 60 schools in the entire US, the bulk of them in about four states. > > So, again: if you want to eliminate Impact Aid, how are kids in those 1,150 other school districts supposed to pay for school? If you live on the base or on a reservation, you go to schools on base or the reservation. If you live off-base and send kids to local public schools, then you pay some form of local tax dollars into the system. I would prefer to see less federal land, which would mean that there would be more land eligible for local districts to tax. That’s my overall solution – have the feds sell some of their vast land holdings. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/33 "2006-03-10T21:18:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, again: if you want to eliminate Impact Aid, how are kids in those 1,150 other school districts supposed to pay for school? Public school isn’t free where you live? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/34 "2006-03-10T21:20:42Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > On the cite for the wastefulnes of the government programs listed (and many not listed), their very existence is a waste of money. They are doing things the government has no business doing. I’m not arguing they are inefficient; I’m arguing they are unnecessary. So the government has no business funding academic institutions, subsidizing medical and scientific research, or even **compiling labor statistics?!** I don’t think even the Libertarian Party would go that far. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/35 "2006-03-10T21:24:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So the government has no business funding academic institutions, subsidizing medical and scientific research, or even **compiling labor statistics?!** I don’t think even the Libertarian Party would go that far. Actually, the Libertarian Party would go much further. Why are labor statistics a government function? If companies or unions use these statistics in the course of business, they should pay for them. For the average citizenry, these statistics are completely meaningless. Same with academic institutions. The people benefiting from them should pay for them. Medical and scientific research is best left to corporations and drug companies. Why should the government subsidize their work? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/36 "2006-03-10T21:27:34Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > NAEP Scores are basically flat since 1971:[http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/2004\_sdts.asp](http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/2004_sdts.asp) > > I’ve already proven that per-pupil spending has doubled. Basically, spending has doubled and scores remain flat. National aggregate figures don’t prove your point. As **howye** pointed out, quality/funding of public schools varies widely. To prove the proposition, “Putting more money into education does not improve students’ performance,” you would have to look at the effect over time of increased funding on particular selected institutions, compared with a control group of other institutions whose inflation-adjusted funding remained constant in the same time period. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/37 "2006-03-10T21:28:46Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Why are labor statistics a government function? :rolleyes: Same reason the Census is a government function. ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/38 "2006-03-10T21:39:27Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Medical and scientific research is best left to corporations and drug companies. Why should the government subsidize their work? :dubious: Somebody remind me, wasn’t there something in the news not that long ago about what a wonderful job corporations do in researching and policing drugs? Coud it be [Vioxx](http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060306&ID=5560468) Political interest groups do influence where the government spends our money. How about we fix that problem and see what happens? The people who benefit from academic institutions do pay for them; because you see we all benefit from academic institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/39 "2006-03-10T21:39:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Same reason the Census is a government function. Really? Did I miss the clause in the Constitution that authorizes the government to collect labor statistics? Did I also miss the clause that says we base one of our houses of Congress on those statistics? If I did, please point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802/40 "2006-03-10T21:46:28Z")
> [@howye](#): > > :dubious: > > Somebody remind me, wasn’t there something in the news not that long ago about what a wonderful job corporations do in researching and policing drugs? > > Coud it be [Vioxx](http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060306&ID=5560468) Sure, corporations produce dangerous drugs at times. When they do, they deserve to be sued and have people stop buying their products. That is what’s happening. Shall we also discuss the thousands of life-saving drugs produced by corporations? > [@](#): > > Political interest groups do influence where the government spends our money. How about we fix that problem and see what happens? And how do we fix the problem? It’s a constitutional protection that people have the right to lobby. If government has the power to distribute funds to special interest groups, it is going to exercise it. The only way to stop them is to take away the power. > [@](#): > > The people who benefit from academic institutions do pay for them; because you see we all benefit from academic institutions. Sure, and those who graduate from them benefit much more directly than people who don’t. Therefore, they should be the ones to pay. Those who develop products from their research benefit much more directly than those who don’t. Therefore, they should be the ones that pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-sense-budget-act/347802.md?page=3)