# Common words that used to have other meanings **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 4, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656 "2023-01-04T14:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/41 "2023-01-05T03:11:20Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Not sure if you were suggesting that the term, as used by Austen, had a meaning beyond a job in the clergy. I think, in Austen’s use, it is just about the clergy - that’s how I have always understood it. A “living” wasn’t just a job which paid enough to live in a socially appropriate fashion; it was a situation in which you were as good as guaranteed that you would receive such an income. An employment position wasn’t a living because you could be fired or made rendundant at any time, and most trades and professions weren’t livings because trade could take a downturn and your income would be affected. Similarly owned a business wasn’t a living. Church appointments were the pre-eminent examples of livings, since (a) they paid a guaranteed income, based on the value of the land (and therefore of the tithes) in the parish, and (b) they were an item of property; the incumbent of a living was entitled to remain in post until he chose to leave (or died); he could only be removed against his will in very exceptional circumstances. Not all church appointments were livings; the vicar of a parish had a living, but he might choose to employ a curate, on a salary, to perform some or even all of the pastoral duties associated with the position. In such a situation the vicar has the living; the curate does not. A military commission was not generally considered a living, not least because the salary was modest, and was not sufficient to keep an army officer in the style in which officers were generally expected to live. Plus, even this income was not guaranteed; officers could be placed on half-pay if their services were not immediately required, and this happened a lot at e.g. the end of wars. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/42 "2023-01-05T03:16:42Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Which brings us to the word “guy” which used to mean a bizarre-looking freak (from the effigies burned on Guy Fawkes night). It’s not clear the the modern sense of “guy” (a man, a fellow) has any connection with Guy Fawkes or his effigies, not least because it emerges in the US in the nineteenth century where Guy Fawkes celebrations weren’t really a thing. There’s speculation that this sense of “guy” may have developed from the Yiddish _goy_, a gentile, but I don’t know that there’s much evidence to back that up. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/43 "2023-01-05T03:56:19Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Well their is the word “gay” that has had several meanings over the generations. Gay at one point meant lighthearted fun for most of its existence. Then (in the 60’s) it was used to describe being a homosexual and the gay lifestyle. In the 90’s (thanks to Southpark) it was used to describe dumb or stupid behavior. > > Quite a range of meanings for a simple little word. > [@mbh](#): > > “Gay” has always meant “happy, joyous, lighthearted”. > It has nearly always had the connotation of being physically “flashy, showy, gaudy”. > In the 19th Century, it acquired the connotation of “sexually promiscuous”. > In the late 19th Century, it meant “working as a prostitute”, and usually described heterosexual females. > In the 1920s, homosexual men used it to describe male prostitutes. > In the 1940s, psychologists started using it to describe homosexuals in general _Gay_ has had a salacious undertone since at least the 17th century. [Cecil addressed this in a 1986 column.](https://www.straightdope.com/21341683/how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual) ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/44 "2023-01-05T13:08:14Z")
The word ‘orange’ originally referred to the fruit, not the color. The color was eventually named after the fruit, not the other way around, as one might expect. [From Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(word)): > The earliest uses of the word in English refer to the fruit, and the color was later named after the fruit. Before the English-speaking world was exposed to the fruit, the color was referred to as “yellow-red” (_[geoluread](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geoluread)_ in [Old English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English)) or “red-yellow”.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(word)#cite_note-1) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/45 "2023-01-05T13:24:27Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > In North America, when we say **veteran** , we use it pretty much only to mean someone who has been in the military, or in the broader sense someone who has longer experience with being in an organization or institution or specific activity or profession (e.g., a veteran of the competition circuit, a veteran astronomer). But in the UK, it can also be used in the sense of “a senior citizen”. [Brit who has lived in the US for 15 years, open to updating…] In the U.K., you are correct that the word veteran unqualified does not automatically refer to an armed forces veteran. But it does not mean “senior citizen”. It always means (in some sense) someone highly experienced. Words that we do use that are not used in the U.S. are pensioner or OAP (old age pensioner), we don’t say retiree. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/46 "2023-01-05T13:29:32Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Goth and the related word Gothic have a long strange history. I was pondering exactly this a few day ago. Thank you for the informative post. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/47 "2023-01-05T14:25:47Z")
“Fair” to describe a person’s looks – e.g., “fair of face” – used to mean beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/48 "2023-01-05T14:28:43Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > [Brit who has lived in the US for 15 years, open to updating…] > > In the U.K., you are correct that the word veteran unqualified does not automatically refer to an armed forces veteran. But it does not mean “senior citizen”. It always means (in some sense) someone highly experienced. > > Words that we do use that are not used in the U.S. are pensioner or OAP (old age pensioner), we don’t say retiree. Here is what a contact of mine from Scotland wrote to me about that very word in a 2019 e-mail (some things redacted, bold my emphasis): “This is about the meaning of words. In Scotland/England calling someone a Veteran just means they **are old** or **they have been doing something for a long time**. I found out some years ago that to Americans and Canadians it is different and means that someone was in the army. I found out when one of our students seeing the Veteran XXX meeting in the XXX assumed they were ex army and was puzzled that many had never been in the army. **It just meant they were all over 60** …” This was in response to my query about how my contact used the word “veteran” in her quote of an earlier piece of writing in a book. Incidentally, I was one of those people who, at an earlier date, was present at her organization when they were holding one such Veteran meeting, and assumed that they were all veterans of the British Army (the one I spoke to, by chance, was. Some of the others may not have been). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/49 "2023-01-05T16:44:52Z")
I think your friend is mistaken about what the word means in British English, presumably because whenever they have encountered veterans of some kind they are (obviously) usually older people. I’ve just checked numerous dictionaries that differentiate British usage, and none agree with your friend that it can just mean a generic geriatric. Dictionaries agree with me that it always implies long _service_ or _experience_ in some capacity. e.g. [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/veteran](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/veteran) I’m open to the possibility that I’ve been wrong about this my whole life too, or that the meaning has drifted in the last couple of decades. Calling @Treppenwitz or other Brits for your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/50 "2023-01-05T16:48:09Z")
veteran **(n)** - having been in the military veteran **(a)** - having long service or experience IMO. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/51 "2023-01-05T16:59:22Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Dictionaries agree with me that it always implies long _service_ in some capacity. We might have to differentiate between English English and Scottish English here. There are host of different words which are used in Scottish English (eg _wain_ for _child_; _feart_ for _afraid_) - it wouldn’t surprise me if some words were common but had a subtly different meaning over the border. In fact I just thought of a trivial example - if you ask for “fish” in a Scottish fish and chip shop, you’ll be given fish and chips. But yeah, I agree with your interpretation. It does refer to military veterans, but also to anyone well experienced in their craft, eg: > **[Veteran pacers return as England announce squad for first two New Zealand Tests](https://www.icc-cricket.com/news/2622731)** > > England have announced a 13-member squad for the first two Tests of their upcoming ICC World Test Championship assignment at home against New Zealand, starting 2 June. (“Pacer” = fast bowler) j ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/52 "2023-01-05T16:59:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think your friend is mistaken about what the word means in British English, presumably because whenever they have encountered veterans of some kind they are (obviously) usually older people. I’ve just checked numerous dictionaries that differentiate British usage, and none agree with your friend that it can just mean a generic geriatric. Dictionaries agree with me that it always implies long _service_ or _experience_ in some capacity. > > I’m open to the possibility that I’ve been wrong about this my whole life too, or that the meaning has drifted in the last couple of decades. Calling @Treppenwitz or other Brits for your opinions. OK, thanks for pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/53 "2023-01-05T17:01:22Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > We might have to differentiate between English English and Scottish English here. There are host of different words which are used in Scottish English (eg _wain_ for _child_; _feart_ for _afraid_) - it wouldn’t surprise me if some words were common but had a subtly different meaning over the border. In fact I just thought of a trivial example - if you ask for “fish” in a Scottish fish and chip shop, you’ll be given fish and chips. Very interesting. So - if I ask for “fish” in an _English_ fish and chip shop, I will be given _only_ the fish and not the chips? ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/54 "2023-01-05T17:02:03Z")
You’ll get a funny look, but yeah. ETA: the confusion arises when you have a complicated order. At the bottom end of the scale, if me and the missus want fish and chips, but don’t want that many chips, we might ask for something like “one fish and one fish and chips”. That’s one portion of chips in England and three in Scotland. j ETA: along the same lines I _believe_ that in a Scottish pub “A half, please” means a half pint of beer plus a whisky - but that was just a story a friend told me many years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/55 "2023-01-05T17:07:40Z")
“Can I get a fish and chips, but instead of the chips, please substitute mushy peas, and instead of the fish, please substitute chips, and instead of the mushy peas, please substitute fish.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/56 "2023-01-05T17:12:33Z")
Which one has the least Spam in it? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/57 "2023-01-05T17:14:47Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > So - if I ask for “fish” in an _English_ fish and chip shop, I will be given _only_ the fish and not the chips? If you ask for ‘fish’ they will reply “what kind of fish?” English fish & chip shops usually sell cod, plaice and haddock. Sometimes there’s a wider selection of fish as well as scampi, fried chicken, fried battered hamburger, fried sausage, and pies. And when you’ve specified your order, they will ask “do you want chips with that?” ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/58 "2023-01-05T17:21:07Z")
It’s an example from years ago, when expecting a Scottish chippie to have more than just cod might be over-optimistic. (Or, for that matter, my native North West England.) As I recollect this happened to us in Stranraer. I use these examples just to make the point that the meaning of a word _might_ be subtly different in English English compared to Scottish English. j ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/59 "2023-01-05T18:42:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They would come dressed up in garish outfits that popular culture told them old times cowboys and gunslingers wore, but had nothing to do with how western settlers and ranchers really dressed. You mean Buster Scruggs isn’t authentic? Awww, man. [![](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/the_ballad_of_buster_scruggs __official_trailer_hd__ netflix-screen_shot-h_2018.jpg?w=1296) ](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/the_ballad_of_buster_scruggs __official_trailer_hd__ netflix-screen_shot-h_2018.jpg?w=1296) ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656/60 "2023-01-05T19:12:41Z")
“Clue” or “clew” used to mean “a ball of yarn or thread”. Inspired by the myth of Theseus and the minotaur’s maze, it came to mean a thread used specifically to find one’s way out of a maze, and then more generally something that leads one to a solution to a puzzle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-words-that-used-to-have-other-meanings/977656.md?page=4)