# Commonly(and frustratingly) misunderstood plot points(spoilers, I guess) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920 "2012-02-06T01:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/181 "2012-02-08T13:42:34Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Also, what was the deal with the cave to begin with? The cup I can see as giving a person immortality, but why does it need to stay in the cave - did they ever explain that? Jesus had the power of creating RFID shoplifting tags. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/182 "2012-02-08T13:47:46Z")
Although it seems to be abandoned (perhaps justly so), I can’t help but add my two cents. I find it infinitely more likely that the script/direction calls for Kirk to be _genuinely_ angry at Khan than for Kirk to give a fake scream as an unnecessary flourish to the ruse already in progress. I think you can definitely read it either way, but a small plot inconsistency wins out over a writing/directing choice to make a ‘fake’ scream so elaborately dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/183 "2012-02-08T13:51:21Z")
What’s inconsistent about it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/184 "2012-02-08T13:57:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Gibson’s character is Episcopalian, and Episcopalians use holy water. Since he goes back to preaching at the end of the movie, we can conclude that he didn’t fully leave the church - he was likely on some sort of “administrative leave” during the period of the movie. I’m not familiar with the precise means by which water is made holy, but I always assumed that it was Gibson’s willingness to act in the name of God in the climactic scene that caused the water to have its effect. We’re told earlier on that all the creatures are so effected, but only as a rumor told to Gibson by someone who hasn’t seen it happen. It may be that part of God’s plan was for Gibson to hear that rumor, even if it wasn’t generally true that ordinary water is toxic to the creatures. Sorry, but I ain’t buying that it’s holy water. Holy water is blessed in a certain way, and it is also treated treated in a reverent manner, and must be sued of disposed of properly. It’s not for drinking. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/185 "2012-02-08T13:58:10Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I think you can definitely read it either way, but a small plot inconsistency wins out over a writing/directing choice to make a ‘fake’ scream so elaborately dramatic. You realize the guy is played by William Shatner, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/186 "2012-02-08T14:00:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sorry, but I ain’t buying that it’s holy water. Holy water is blessed in a certain way, and it is also treated treated in a reverent manner, and must be sued of disposed of properly. It’s not for drinking. He only needs to have made it holy right before the big fight scene, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/187 "2012-02-08T14:18:23Z")
The Aliens in signs aren’t demons. They’re bogeymen. Maybe these particular bogeymen travel through space in a flying saucer, sure. But they’re still bogeymen. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/188 "2012-02-08T15:20:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What’s inconsistent about it? The amount of chutzpah that Kirk puts into that yell has always struck me as odd, considering how he is not at all marooned in the asteroid, and he knows it. As someone suggested upthread, I think they wrote that reaction in because it makes for good drama in the moment, just like the writers decide that Kirk doesn’t tell anyone that in fact they will be rescued in a few hours until after it happens; it makes the reveal to the audience that much better. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/189 "2012-02-08T15:23:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You realize the guy is played by William Shatner, right? Hah. Yes. But despite popular perspectives and modern self-parody, Shatner is a very capable actor; I have no doubt that he could have delivered that line in a different way if asked. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/190 "2012-02-08T16:12:14Z")
Re Total Recall: The theory that the whole movie was a memory implant is interesting but I don’t see it. In the short story the joke is the memory implant is similar to something that really happened to the character. The way I see it the movie just expands on this idea. Arnold really does go to Mars and turns on the Oxygen machine. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/191 "2012-02-08T16:15:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In fact, the whole movie was about how random occurrences can change the course of your entire life […] In _Pulp Fiction_, the characters had very little control of their own fate. Watch it again - _Pulp Fiction_ is a strict morality play in which each character is presented with critical ethical choices and then immediately punished or spared according to merit. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Did you notice that every time Vincent goes to the bathroom, something bad happens? It’s because he frequently fails to wash his hands properly. (This is less of a non sequitur than it may seem at first blush.) ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/192 "2012-02-08T16:47:55Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Yeah I always assumed Replicants were humans grown in a vat. If they were filled with wires and circuits you wouldn’t need a special test to ID them. Jumping back to Blade Runner. The source novel for this is entitled ‘Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?’ by the genius, Philip K. Dick. That, of course, implies that the replicants are in fact ‘androids’. Now, we all think mechanical/electrical robot gizmos like the driods on Star Wars when we see or hear that word. But, in a strict sense, the definition is: an automaton in the form of a human being. [from [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/android)] Automaton needs expansion as well: (Digging deep here… hope it isn’t a hole) Definition three: something capable of acting automatically or without an external motive force. OK, so now we have an entity that is self-powered and self-controlling that is shaped in the form of a human being. So, by this convoluted description, androids could be organic. … But the movie diverges in many points with the novel, so whatever looks right is probably right, and it is obvious that the replicants in the movie are essentially super-powered humans with artificially shortened lifespans. They are probably also incapable of procreation. If I were designing such creatures and were as amoral as their designer was in the movie, then I would certainly assure that pregnancy was not an option. The movie is about what is means to be ‘human’. No more and no less. And it is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/193 "2012-02-08T17:03:03Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Watch it again - _Pulp Fiction_ is a strict morality play in which each character is presented with critical ethical choices and then immediately punished or spared according to merit. I agree - however, the path they take until they reach those ethical junctions is always outside their control. Jules and Vincent had planned to shoot some guys, get a briefcase and go home. Butch had planned to win a fight and skip in the morning. Vincent had planned to take his boss’s wife out to a nice dinner. Fate had other plans. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/194 "2012-02-08T17:22:37Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Re Total Recall: The theory that the whole movie was a memory implant is interesting but I don’t see it. In the short story the joke is the memory implant is similar to something that really happened to the character. The way I see it the movie just expands on this idea. Arnold really does go to Mars and turns on the Oxygen machine. Wasn’t the scene with the company rep who finds him and tries to convince him that this it was all a simulation meant to throw doubt on that idea? Arnold uses a sort of “dream logic” to determine the guy is lying. The rep is sweating nervously which he wouldn’t be unless he actually was in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/195 "2012-02-08T17:32:41Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’m curious about this, I haven’t seen the movie in ages, but according to this, the knight doesn’t need to eat or drink. You drink once and you are immortal (as long as you remain in the cave). It’s not like the knight has to drink every three days in order to prevent dying of thirst, right? Ya’ know, I kind of thought he did have to drink from it every so often. I guess I figured he wasn’t that old when he got there, but gradually aged a bit when he didn’t drink. However, I do have to admit that the dialogue may indicate that you are immortal forever as long as you remain. It does only seem to slow down the aging, though. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/196 "2012-02-08T18:03:27Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Re Total Recall: The theory that the whole movie was a memory implant is interesting but I don’t see it. In the short story the joke is the memory implant is similar to something that really happened to the character. The way I see it the movie just expands on this idea. Arnold really does go to Mars and turns on the Oxygen machine. The computer happened to show an exact image of the super-secret reactor no one had seen before? And happened to contain a “blue skies on Mars reference” which no one knew about because no one knew about the ancient reactor that would do exactly that? And he happens to meet the woman that the computer generated for him before he got his implant? 21A? The exact same woman from the simulation happened to really exist and was his girlfriend in the resistance? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/197 "2012-02-08T20:35:31Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > The amount of chutzpah that Kirk puts into that yell has always struck me as odd, considering how he is not at all marooned in the asteroid, and he knows it. I wouldn’t call it “chutzpah”, and Kirk certainly does _not_ know that rescue is inevitable. He can be confident it will be possible in two hours (and arguably also much later on when Starfleet sends another ship to Regula to investigate the _Enterprise_’s disappearance), will a well-justified trust in the abilities of Spock and Scott etc., but in the meantime what he _does_ know is that the _Reliant_ is in the area and that it is probably in better shape than the _Enterprise_ because it can use its transporters and _Enterprise_ cannot. Also, consider the emotional roller-coaster Kirk’s been on in the events leading up to that moment. His beloved ship has been clobbered, in no small part to Kirk’s own screwup (“caught with my britches down”), he gets the shock of seeing Khan again, he watches Peter Preston die, he sees the corpses of the dozen or so Genesis scientists that Khan had tortured, he finds what at first looks like the corpses of Chekov and Terrell (“oh, my God”), he is physically attacked by David Marcus, he is nearly killed by Terrell (who only spares Kirk’s life by committing suicide), and he sees Khan stealing the Genesis device which Kirk knows is effectively a doomsday weapon. He also knows, from this last action, that the _Reliant_ is not helpless, as _Enterprise_ currently is. He quickly improvises a plan to taunt Khan down to the planet, even if it means putting his own life at risk - anything to delay Khan from finishing off _Enterprise_ - and it fails. Add to this Kirk’s already sour mood from earlier scenes in which his birthday reminds him he is getting old and the reopening of the “old wounds” regarding the Marcuses. I see absolutely no reason that his yell of “Khaan!” is anything but the perfectly human climax of adrenalin, anger and frustration, condensed into one furious moment. Kirk’s “wolf” from “The Enemy Within” gets the upper hand for a few angry seconds. Saying this emotional moment is “out of character” only makes sense if Kirk’s character is presumed to be a robot. _After_ all this, he calms down (and the editing of the film suggests this could easily have taken far more than “thirty seconds”), reassesses, makes an emotional reconnection with Carol Marcus, is jaw-droppingly awed by the Genesis Cave, starts to feel cocky again when telling his Kobayashi Maru story and when he snaps open his communicator and calls Spock, the Kirk we know and love is _back_, baby! If anyone can cite comments or interviews from the 1980s where Shatner, Nicholas Meyer, Jack Sowards or Harve Bennett says the “Khaan!” yell was supposed to be a bluff or a fake, I’d like to see it. A shooting script that describes this would be interesting, too. Meyer’s director’s commentary on the 2002 DVD makes no mention of it, but it’s the only version I have. I invite anyone with a later release to get back to me about it if there is relevant material. I admit I would be a bit doubtful if one of the four men has said “yeah, it was fake, we planned it that way all along” twently or more years after the movie’s release. In any case, I fail to see how the “he was faking” idea improves the movie in any way - to the contrary, it robs an important scene of its dramatic punch if we’re to assume that in the middle of a furious yell, Kirk was mentally making air quotes. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/198 "2012-02-08T20:52:16Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Re Total Recall: The theory that the whole movie was a memory implant is interesting but I don’t see it. In the short story the joke is the memory implant is similar to something that really happened to the character. The way I see it the movie just expands on this idea. Arnold really does go to Mars and turns on the Oxygen machine. Just to be clear and resay what morbo has said. While Ahhnold is being prepped to go on his mental vacation, a tech mentions something about blue skies on mars and the monitor he is looking at showes the alien oxygen machine. There is NO WAY Ahhnold went to Mars. After the end of the movie he woke up getting what he paid for…and went home to his wife. 🙂 People have trouble with this for some reason. I even rented the movie and showed that scene to friends several times and they STILL insisted he went to Mars for real. I thought it fit the OP perfectly 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/199 "2012-02-08T20:59:14Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Jumping back to Blade Runner. > The source novel for this is entitled ‘Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?’ by the genius, Philip K. Dick. > That, of course, implies that the replicants are in fact ‘androids’. Now, we all think mechanical/electrical robot gizmos like the driods on Star Wars when we see or hear that word. But, in a strict sense, the definition is: > an automaton in the form of a human being. [from [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/android)] > > Automaton needs expansion as well: > (Digging deep here… hope it isn’t a hole) > Definition three: something capable of acting automatically or without an external motive force. > > OK, so now we have an entity that is self-powered and self-controlling that is shaped in the form of a human being. So, by this convoluted description, androids could be organic. > > … > > But the movie diverges in many points with the novel, so whatever looks right is probably right, and it is obvious that the replicants in the movie are essentially super-powered humans with artificially shortened lifespans. They are probably also incapable of procreation. If I were designing such creatures and were as amoral as their designer was in the movie, then I would certainly assure that pregnancy was not an option. > > The movie is about what is means to be ‘human’. No more and no less. And it is enough. I decided a long time ago that as much as I love Dick(wait…:smack:) comparions are pointless, Blade Runner diverges so much from its source material its best to consider it a new work. I actually think its superior and not so much about AI rights as dehumanization. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/200 "2012-02-08T21:15:11Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Just to be clear and resay what morbo has said. > > While Ahhnold is being prepped to go on his mental vacation, a tech mentions something about blue skies on mars and the monitor he is looking at showes the alien oxygen machine. > > There is NO WAY Ahhnold went to Mars. After the end of the movie he woke up getting what he paid for…and went home to his wife. 🙂 > > People have trouble with this for some reason. I even rented the movie and showed that scene to friends several times and they STILL insisted he went to Mars for real. > > I thought it fit the OP perfectly 🙂 I think it was a dream, the following supports it (although not the ‘went home to his wife’ bit): [From here](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100802/trivia): > [@](#): > > As director Paul Verhoeven is careful to explain on the DVD commentary, when Dr. Edgemar (Roy Brocksmith) visits Quaid, he outlines the entire third act of the movie. He says that if Quaid kills him: “the walls of reality will come crashing down” (moments after Quaid shoots Edgemar, the walls of the apartment literally crash down); he says that Quaid will believe himself the savior of the resistance only to discover that he is in fact Cohaagen’s “bosom buddy” (which is exactly what happens); and he says that he will have visions of an “alien civilization” (which Quaid experiences during the mind meld with Kuato). Verhoeven points out that if a viewer believes the whole film is a dream, then Edgemar’s prediction that Quaid **will end up being lobotomized** is fulfilled in the fade to white which ends the movie. - > [@](#): > > On three separate occasions, if you pay close attention, various characters give the ending of the movie away: 1) When Bob McClane pitches the Secret Agent Ego Trip to Quaid, he tells him that by the time his trip is over he’ll “get the girl, kill the bad guys, and save the entire planet!” 2) When Dr. Lull tosses Ernie a computer chip, he looks at it and says “That’s a new one! ‘Blue Sky on Mars’.” And finally 3) When Quaid threatens to shoot Dr. Edgemar in the Hilton suite, Edgemar describes the events that will happen almost verbatim throughout the rest of the movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=11)