# Commonly(and frustratingly) misunderstood plot points(spoilers, I guess) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920 "2012-02-06T01:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/221 "2012-02-08T23:46:26Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > The problem with that logic is that the Tolkien canon explicitly states that they have beards. _The War of the Jewels_ contains the following: HOMES isn’t canon, is it? IIRC those are based on Tolkien’s notes over decades of research and several ideas evolve over that time, e.g., Strider at Bree originally being a crippled hobbit or something like that. (And I’m pretty sure I remember from one of the Appendices of LOTR that Tolkien explicitly stated that female dwarves _don’t_ have beards.) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/222 "2012-02-08T23:50:22Z")
Because I _want_ Total Recall to not all be a dream, I tell myself that the similarities between the Recall implant and what happened to him (like his old GF) were put there intentionally to make Arnie think he was imagining it. This was their way to both get Arnie to Mars and convince him he was mad. Same for the predictions made by the bad guy - after all, if he was previously a leader of the resistance and there really is air on Mars, then it’d be kinda easy to make that prediction. It’d be like me trying to convince David Cameron he was insane because he believes himself to be a millionaire and Prime Minister. Oh, I wish! ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/223 "2012-02-09T00:20:23Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > (And I’m pretty sure I remember from one of the Appendices of LOTR that Tolkien explicitly stated that female dwarves _don’t_ have beards.) You remember incorrectly. [Appendix A](http://books.google.com/books?id=hFSx37SaQRoC&pg=PT324&lpg=PT324&dq=It+was+said+by+Gimli+that+there+are+few+dwarf-women,+probably+no+more+than+a+third+of+the+whole+people.+They+seldom+walk+abroad+except+at+great+need.+They+are+in+voice+and+appearance,+and+in+garb+if+they+must+go+on+a+journey,+so+like+to+the+dwarf-men+that+the+eyes+and+ears+of+other+peoples+cannot+tell+them+apart&source=bl&ots=MzQapPuCCx&sig=N6s8Dx8R888ptgG2oe7q2WQhzTs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bA8zT9bTLIfq2AW42LTMBw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=It%20was%20said%20by%20Gimli%20that%20there%20are%20few%20dwarf-women%2C%20probably%20no%20more%20than%20a%20third%20of%20the%20whole%20people.%20They%20seldom%20walk%20abroad%20except%20at%20great%20need.%20They%20are%20in%20voice%20and%20appearance%2C%20and%20in%20garb%20if%20they%20must%20go%20on%20a%20journey%2C%20so%20like%20to%20the%20dwarf-men%20that%20the%20eyes%20and%20ears%20of%20other%20peoples%20cannot%20tell%20them%20apart&f=false) for _The Return of the King_ has this : \>\>\>\>\>“It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among men that there are no dwarf women and that the dwarves ‘grow out of stone’” \<\<\<\<\< That certainly implies that dwarf women had beards, as you can’t tell the difference between a dwarf man and a dwarf woman just by looking at them. The lack of a beard would certainly be a noticeable difference. But since there aren’t any noticeable differences… ---
**Author:** ![SunSandSuffering](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@SunSandSuffering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunSandSuffering)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/224 "2012-02-09T15:57:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And I’m simply applying your logic that a movie about identifying robots and aliens. When I first saw Alien, I was sure that Ash was some sort of aliebn creation/construction/ taken over human, because they hadn’t mentioned a word about robots before that point, and the film was about Aliens, and even entitled that. It wasn’t until they actually _told_ you that Asah was a robot that you got the point,. > > They never said that the AIs at the end were robots, and nothing clearly indicated it. Interesting, I have never heard anyone ever think Ash was anything other than a robot! ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/225 "2012-02-09T18:11:19Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Pulp Fiction: > > Marcellus was staking out Butch’s apartment along with Vincent (filling in for Jules, since he had left the business). He had apparently just stepped out for donuts. That’s why Butch ran into him nearby, it wasn’t just some crazy coincidence. Yes, and it was Marcellus’s uzi that killed Vincent. Couldn’t very well bring it with him to get donuts. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/226 "2012-02-09T18:18:55Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Yes, and it was Marcellus’s uzi that killed Vincent. Couldn’t very well bring it with him to get donuts. This one was always the most ambiguous, in my mind. I suppose the implication was that if Jules hadn’t decided to walk away, he’d be dead with Vincent or hit by car. But maybe he doesn’t leave a loaded gun sitting on the counter and instead ambushes Butch. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/227 "2012-02-09T18:20:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I suppose if anything about the scene is contrived, and despite my earlier flippant answer, it’s that Vincent goes to the bathroom but leaves his gun on the counter. After all, they’re _expecting_ Butch to return (that’s the whole point they’re there in the first place) and that he could show up any time. At this point, you have to fanwank a bit: the silenced machine pistol isn’t Vincent’s, it’s belongs to Marcellus. After Marcellus left for food, Vincent (who’d been there for several hours) figured Butch wasn’t coming back, so he went to the bathroom and forgot about Marcellus’s MAC-10. Then when he heard the noise Butch was making, unwrapping toaster pastries and popping them in the toaster and such, he figured Marcellus had returned. Although, now that I think about it, why are they expecting Butch to turn up? He already packed his bags and left. That’s probably obvious from a cursory look at his apartment. They presumably don’t know about the watch or its significance to Butch. He just double crossed a mob boss and packed his bags, he should be long gone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/228 "2012-02-09T18:33:27Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Although, now that I think about it, why are they expecting Butch to turn up? Maybe they’re not; as you say, the guy _“already packed his bags and left. That’s probably obvious from a cursory look at his apartment. They presumably don’t know about the watch or its significance to Butch. He just double crossed a mob boss and packed his bags, he should be long gone.”_ Maybe they’re just there to rummage through his stuff, hoping to find a lead? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/229 "2012-02-09T19:33:33Z")
> [@grude](#): > > A Boy And His Dog - movie > > Is the boy insane?! I mean he is a teenage orphan for who knows how long, does he really have a talking dog? The only info we ever get to explain the dog’s psychic abilities is from the boy himself, seems very suspect. No one else ever interacts with this supposed telepathic dog that’s as smart as a bright human adult. In the Harlan Ellison short story, the military had bred super-intelligent telepathic dogs for combat use. Einstein was one of these. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/230 "2012-02-09T20:06:12Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Although, now that I think about it, why are they expecting Butch to turn up? He already packed his bags and left. That’s probably obvious from a cursory look at his apartment. They presumably don’t know about the watch or its significance to Butch. He just double crossed a mob boss and packed his bags, he should be long gone. I don’t think they are expecting him to turn up. That’s why Vincent is taking a crap while Marcellus grabs some donuts. I figure they had just got there a few minutes earlier, looked around, and thought, “Fuck, this guy’s long gone.” Vincent decides he needs to use the facilities, and Marcellus figures he’ll go grab some food while Vincent’s busy. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/231 "2012-02-09T22:52:57Z")
In The Godfather: Michael did not know Carlo set up Sonny or who he did it for until he trick Carlo to confess. Sure he was probably 75% convinced before but he needed the confirmation before he killed his own brother in law. Some of Al Pacino’s best work in that scene. You can tell he wasn’t sure by how his eyes change after Carlo breaks down. I don’t know how people interpret it any other way. He would have had him killed right away without the meeting if he knew. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/232 "2012-02-09T22:58:40Z")
Actually, that was better explained in the book - they knew it was Barzini (actually, that point was made clear in the movie after the peace settlement… “It was Barzini all along”.) The thing with Carlos is that Vito couldn’t do what needed doing because it would cause too much pain for Connie, his favorite child, and therefore he passed the torch to Michael, who could do it. For his father’s sake, not his own, Michael gets the confession from Carlos before having him killed. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/233 "2012-02-09T23:29:24Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Actually, that was better explained in the book - they knew it was Barzini (actually, that point was made clear in the movie after the peace settlement… “It was Barzini all along”.) The thing with Carlos is that Vito couldn’t do what needed doing because it would cause too much pain for Connie, his favorite child, and therefore he passed the torch to Michael, who could do it. > > For his father’s sake, not his own, Michael gets the confession from Carlos before having him killed. Its Carlo. Never read the book. Heard too much about giant vagina plotlines to be interested. At that point in the movie Vito is out of the picture, Michael is firmly in control. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/234 "2012-02-10T01:29:20Z")
He’s not “firmly” in control until the final scene, after he’s earned the respect of the consigliori’s (as indicated when Clemenza kisses Michael’s ring) because of the massacre, but again, in the book, Vito exacts a promise from Michael that Michael will “be 100% sure”, i.e., get a confession. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/235 "2012-02-10T01:37:03Z")
No, in the book the capos’ opinions of Michael were slightly _diminished_ by seeing his need an explicit confession from Carlo, to reassure his own conscience. The capos were surprised Michael even brought it up, knowing that Vito would have acted without hesitation based on the evidence they already had. The reason Vito didn’t do it was because killing Carlo would have alerted Barzini before the Corleones were ready to massacre their enemies. And that massacre couldn’t take place while Vito was in charge because he had made a personal promise to the heads of the other families that he wouldn’t seek revenge. So it fell to Michael to do his dad’s dirty work when the time was right. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/236 "2012-02-10T01:43:40Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I think I got it now. Spock did not become immortal at the end of _Wrath of Khan_ because he’s not an alien - he’s a robot. But did he drop the ball on purpose, or to trick Khan? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/237 "2012-02-10T05:52:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I wouldn’t call it “chutzpah”, and Kirk certainly does _not_ know that rescue is inevitable. He can be confident it will be possible in two hours (and arguably also much later on when Starfleet sends another ship to Regula to investigate the _Enterprise_’s disappearance), will a well-justified trust in the abilities of Spock and Scott etc., but in the meantime what he _does_ know is that the _Reliant_ is in the area and that it is probably in better shape than the _Enterprise_ because it can use its transporters and _Enterprise_ cannot. > > Also, consider the emotional roller-coaster Kirk’s been on in the events leading up to that moment. His beloved ship has been clobbered, in no small part to Kirk’s own screwup (“caught with my britches down”), he gets the shock of seeing Khan again, he watches Peter Preston die, he sees the corpses of the dozen or so Genesis scientists that Khan had tortured, he finds what at first looks like the corpses of Chekov and Terrell (“oh, my God”), he is physically attacked by David Marcus, he is nearly killed by Terrell (who only spares Kirk’s life by committing suicide), and he sees Khan stealing the Genesis device which Kirk knows is effectively a doomsday weapon. He also knows, from this last action, that the _Reliant_ is not helpless, as _Enterprise_ currently is. He quickly improvises a plan to taunt Khan down to the planet, even if it means putting his own life at risk - anything to delay Khan from finishing off _Enterprise_ - and it fails. > > Add to this Kirk’s already sour mood from earlier scenes in which his birthday reminds him he is getting old and the reopening of the “old wounds” regarding the Marcuses. I see absolutely no reason that his yell of “Khaan!” is anything but the perfectly human climax of adrenalin, anger and frustration, condensed into one furious moment. Kirk’s “wolf” from “The Enemy Within” gets the upper hand for a few angry seconds. Saying this emotional moment is “out of character” only makes sense if Kirk’s character is presumed to be a robot. > > _After_ all this, he calms down (and the editing of the film suggests this could easily have taken far more than “thirty seconds”), reassesses, makes an emotional reconnection with Carol Marcus, is jaw-droppingly awed by the Genesis Cave, starts to feel cocky again when telling his Kobayashi Maru story and when he snaps open his communicator and calls Spock, the Kirk we know and love is _back_, baby! > > If anyone can cite comments or interviews from the 1980s where Shatner, Nicholas Meyer, Jack Sowards or Harve Bennett says the “Khaan!” yell was supposed to be a bluff or a fake, I’d like to see it. A shooting script that describes this would be interesting, too. Meyer’s director’s commentary on the 2002 DVD makes no mention of it, but it’s the only version I have. I invite anyone with a later release to get back to me about it if there is relevant material. I admit I would be a bit doubtful if one of the four men has said “yeah, it was fake, we planned it that way all along” twently or more years after the movie’s release. > > In any case, I fail to see how the “he was faking” idea improves the movie in any way - to the contrary, it robs an important scene of its dramatic punch if we’re to assume that in the middle of a furious yell, Kirk was mentally making air quotes. Finally. You actually argue against the alternative interpretation instead of acting like you can’t understand it, somehow equating something that people inferred from what is shown onscreen to something that is made up out of the whole cloth and breaks not just one scene but the entire movie. That’s what was frustrating me. It seemed like you couldn’t even grasp the argument that it was fake, rather than having considered each part of it and rejected it. I just wish I’d have read this first so I wouldn’t have worked so hard in trying to explain what was so frustrating about discussing this. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/238 "2012-02-10T21:12:24Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Regarding Total Recall: > Wasn’t there something in the movie about some people needing a labotomy if the procedure fried their brain? I actually thought, like you, that Arnold dreamed the whole thing, but unlike you, I thought it messed up his brain and he would essentially stay on Mars forever (in his mind, of course) while his actual body was a vegetable. I haven’t seen the movie in years and years, so I might be way off base. But nothing made me think he was going back to Sharon Stone and everything would be hunky dory. You and Meatros might be right. A more depressing ending but it seems to ring true. Need to resee the movie again 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/239 "2012-02-10T21:26:33Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > But did he drop the ball on purpose, or to trick Khan? Kirk would have found a way to drop the ball and still win. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/240 "2012-02-11T00:43:08Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I will never understand how people can look at [this](http://www.thewoodmovie.com/images/cache/screen_image_343846.jpg) in a film called Artificial Intelligence that’s all about robots getting ever more advanced and not realise it’s a robot. I assumed they were aliens because they looked almost exactly like the aliens from Abyss, who were also pretty hip to technology, as well as interfacing with it. It makes more sense that they were robots, and I agree they were, but I also think the presentation of them by the filmmakers was a giant fail. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Arnold uses a sort of “dream logic” to determine the guy is lying. The rep is sweating nervously which he wouldn’t be unless he actually was in danger. Even the very first time I saw it this logic didn’t ring true. The big company honcho is begging the guy to come out of his dream or be lobotomized; of _course_ he’s sweating. The very real clear and present danger to him is a massive PR shitstorm that could torpedo his whole company. “Come take one of our mind vacations; the chance for full lobotomy is pretty low!” is a terrible sales pitch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=13)