# Commonly(and frustratingly) misunderstood plot points(spoilers, I guess) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920 "2012-02-06T01:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/81 "2012-02-06T21:59:19Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Which part? That I.J. 4 isn’t worth watching? Yeah, a lot of people thought that. > > Or that Indy is immortal? Yup, Some people thought that, including the author of the novelization of the film. The knight clearly and unambiguously explains that the grail provides a very limited form of immortality, which will not work if you leave the cave. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/82 "2012-02-06T22:02:46Z")
> [@grude](#): > > A Boy And His Dog - movie > > Is the boy insane?! I mean he is a teenage orphan for who knows how long, does he really have a talking dog? The only info we ever get to explain the dog’s psychic abilities is from the boy himself, seems very suspect. No one else ever interacts with this supposed telepathic dog that’s as smart as a bright human adult. I’ve never seen the movie. In the book some of the narrative mentions other dogs and the processes involved in creating the dogs. Vic may be insane 😃 but its not due to the talking dog. A boy loves his dog. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/83 "2012-02-06T22:10:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I recognize that the beings at the end of AI were intended to be robots, but I also recognize that they made some very poor design decisions with them, such that it’s quite understandable that some viewers might mistake them for aliens. > > When they’re talking about how they bring people back, they say that they were surprised to learn that there was an inherent record of the person embedded somehow into the fabric of space-time, but that such records could only be retraced once before being irretrievably lost. That sounds like a pretty clear SF dog-whistle for “soul” to me. This is what they actually say, from the script I posted earlier: > [@](#): > > So, we began a project that would make it possible to > recreate the living body of a person long dead from the DNA > in a fragment of bone or mummified skin. We also wondered, > would it be possible to retrieve a memory trace in resonance > with a recreated body. And do you know what we found? We > found… the very fabric of space-time itself appeared to > store information about every event which had ever occured > in the past. The events were saved and somehow that meant they could resurrect a person for one day. It’s not very soul-like, unlike the events of your life are your soul. And it still doesn’t say that the events, and everything else, would be erased - just that they have this one-day chance and then they can’t retrieve them again, not that they’re no longer there. If you find a film from 1912 but it’s so degraded that it can only be played once, does that mean the film never existed? It’s understandable that some viewers might, at first, mistake the future mecha for aliens. Continuing to argue that they were aliens is what I disagree with. If they could be aliens or could be robots, and it’s a film about robots with no aliens hinted at and the makers say they were robots, Occam’s razor says that they’re robots. And, like I said before, the coincidences with some alien stereotypes are there for a reason - they’re silver because they’re metal, they’re anthropomorphic because that’s how they started out (and perhaps it’s a good design, or perhaps some of it is sentimentality - they seem to be quite sentimental), but they don’t really have muscles because they don’t need them. It’s in keeping with the idea of robots designed by humans eventually evolving independently. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/84 "2012-02-06T22:22:44Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Of course, the entire _point_ of the novel **Contact** was completely missed by the filmmakers. For those of us who’ve never read the novel could you explain this one further please? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/85 "2012-02-06T22:35:47Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The knight clearly and unambiguously explains that the grail provides a very limited form of immortality, which will not work if you leave the cave. Maybe it just kicked in again briefly during the refrigerator scene. But, yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he was _not_ immortal at the end of _Last Crusade_. And my two-and-a-half cents on _AI_ – I’ll buy Kathleen Kennedy’s assertion that they were robots, but I don’t get how she can be so perplexed that some people thought they were aliens. They really did look like aliens! ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/86 "2012-02-06T22:40:29Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Of course, the entire _point_ of the novel **Contact** was completely missed by the filmmakers. Please elaborate. Because I feel the same way, but could never quite put my finger on how the movie disappointed. (Really liked the novel.) . ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/87 "2012-02-06T22:40:52Z")
I understand that the future beings from AI look a lot like classic aliens. But this was deliberate on the part of the filmmakers. Not that it’s supposed to be ambiguous whether they are aliens or robots, they are clearly supposed to be robots. Robots that remind you of aliens. You’re supposed to be all like, whoah, these robots are so advanced they’re almost like, aliens, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/88 "2012-02-06T22:46:47Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Maybe it just kicked in again briefly during the refrigerator scene. > But, yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he was _not_ immortal at the end of _Last Crusade_. > > And my two-and-a-half cents on _AI_ – I’ll buy Kathleen Kennedy’s assertion that they were robots, but I don’t get how she can be so perplexed that some people thought they were aliens. They really did look like aliens! As a little kid I thought Indy was now immortal and I was excited at the prospect of Indiana Jones movies being able to take place IN THE FUTURE! With spaceships! My mom explained to me about the grail knight and the cave. I was disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/89 "2012-02-06T23:00:21Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > For those of us who’ve never read the novel could you explain this one further please? 🙂 > [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Please elaborate. > > Because I feel the same way, but could never quite put my finger on how the movie disappointed. (Really liked the novel.) > > . I’m not certain because I never read the novel, but IIRC it was the scene with James Woods and Angela Bassett at the end, discussing that while her recording device only recorded static, it recorded 18 hours of static, rather than the second or two during which she dropped through the machine. The novel pushed the ambiguity and lack of proof. Ellie’s trip through the machine is supposed to be her transcendental experience that leads her to believe in extraterrestrial intelligent life without having any proof to show for it, just like theists who claim to have personally experienced God. That scene eliminates the ambiguity. “Nope, she’s right and there’s proof, it’s just been classified.” I love the movie anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/90 "2012-02-06T23:41:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Perhaps it’s because Kirk is deliberately misleading Khan, making Khan think he’s won, while not actually being quite as badly hurt as he seems. Certainly, that “days instead of hours” message was a lie to deceive Khan. Maybe the ‘Khaaaaan’ cry was also just pretending to be furious and frustrated, while actually being in control. Plus, about thirty seconds later, he’s calmly asking if there’s anything to eat. > > Actually, I never thought about this until now.I always thought he was angry and frustrated, but now I think he was just pretending. And I honestly don’t understand the basis of this interpretation, and cannot countenance it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/91 "2012-02-06T23:51:28Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Which part? That I.J. 4 isn’t worth watching? Yeah, a lot of people thought that. > > Or that Indy is immortal? Yup, Some people thought that, including the author of the novelization of the film. The novelization of the fourth one or fourth one? I assume you mean third one. What did it say? The film is quite clear that he is not immortal. " You have chosen wisely. But the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal. That is the boundary and the price of immortality." ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/92 "2012-02-06T23:53:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And I honestly don’t understand the basis of this interpretation, and cannot countenance it. because Kirk had worked it out with Spock and knew he wasn’t really trapped. Why would he make a genuine yell of frustration if he had already worked it out? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/93 "2012-02-06T23:58:47Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > For those of us who’ve never read the novel could you explain this one further please? 🙂 > [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Please elaborate. > > Because I feel the same way, but could never quite put my finger on how the movie disappointed. (Really liked the novel.) > > . Let me [quote myself] ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10512176&postcount=75](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10512176&postcount=75)): > [@](#): > > (The theme of the book was Eleanor Arroway’s search) for evidence of Gods existence and (she) never would’ve said, no matter how smarmily, “Well, I guess you gotta take me on faith, hyuck-hyuck!” > > The ending of the movie is so philosophically different from the book that Sagan is still likely spinning in his grave. Here is Wiki’s summation of it: > > > [@](#): > > > > In a kind of postscript, Ellie, acting upon a suggestion by the senders of the Message, works on a program which computes the digits of π to record lengths and in different bases. Very, very far from the decimal point (1020) and in base 11, it finds that a special pattern does exist when the numbers stop varying randomly and start producing 1’s and 0’s in a very long string. The string’s length is the product of 11 prime numbers. The 1’s and 0’s when organized as a square of specific dimensions form a perfect circle. > > > > The extraterrestrials suggest that this is an unmistakably intelligent artifact, an artist’s signature, woven into the fabric of space. It is another Message, one from the universe’s creator. Yet the extraterrestrials are just as ignorant to its meaning as Ellie, as it could be still some sort of a statistical anomaly. They also make reference to older artifacts built from space time itself (namely the wormhole transit system) abandoned by a prior civilization. A line in the book suggests that the image is a foretaste of deeper marvels hidden even farther within Pi. This new pursuit becomes analogous to SETI; it is another search for meaningful signals in apparent noise. This idea, among other plot points, was omitted from the film version. > > She didn’t say “Take me on faith”. She didn’t need to - she was told that the evidence was out there, was given hints as to how to find it, and when she did, she had her proof. The movie turned this around completely, making her take the side of the religionists, exactly the opposite of the point that Sagan was trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/94 "2012-02-07T00:00:09Z")
Whoops, I also got it completely wrong. Like I said, I hadn’t read the book. I was just going off Wikipedia. Edit: Except that same Wikipedia article says this: > [@](#): > > They are left with no proof of their stories and are accused of fabrication. > > Thus, though Ellie has traveled across the galaxy and actually encountered extraterrestrial beings, she cannot prove it. > > _snip_ > > Ellie, a lifelong religious skeptic, finds herself asking the world to take a leap of faith and believe what she and the others say happened to them. She finds only one person willing to take that leap: Palmer Joss, a minister introduced early in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/95 "2012-02-07T00:01:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > The novel pushed the ambiguity and lack of proof. . Did it? The way I remember it, the novel showed that a message from The Creator was coded into the digits of Pi. Which she only knew about because she had been through the gate. Thus proving that 1) that she had been through the gate 2) a creator of some sort exists. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/96 "2012-02-07T00:05:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And I honestly don’t understand the basis of this interpretation, and cannot countenance it. Okay, if you don’t agree with it and I won’t argue. But what part don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/97 "2012-02-07T00:12:18Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > The novelization of the fourth one or fourth one? I assume you mean third one. What did it say? I mean the novelization of Last Crusade got it wrong. The end of the book went something like " And Indy and his father rode off together … into immortality. " > [@](#): > > The film is quite clear that he is not immortal. I agree. I knew the book was wrong when I read it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/98 "2012-02-07T00:23:14Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It’s understandable that some viewers might, at first, mistake the future mecha for aliens. Continuing to argue that they were aliens is what I disagree with. If they could be aliens or could be robots, and it’s a film about robots with no aliens hinted at and the makers say they were robots, Occam’s razor says that they’re robots. Well, Occam’s Razor says you accept the simplest explanation that fits the facts, but robots aren’t necessarily the simpler option. How did they survive whatever happened to all the humans? How did they forget what humans were like? Some beings are examining the Earth and trying to learn about its prior inhabitants; in a sense it doesn’t matter much who they are. And Occam’s Razor applies best to natural phenomena, true mysteries. This was a crafted story. The people making it could show what they wanted to show in order to tell the story they wanted tell. If it was important for the audience to know that these were robots, and in some way derived from those shown earlier in the movie, they could have done a better job of getting that across. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/99 "2012-02-07T00:37:20Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Okay, if you don’t agree with it and I won’t argue. But what part don’t you understand? I don’t understand why you prefer an unlikely interpretation to a simpler and better one. There’s nothing in your description that is baffling in and of itself, but to me it looks like choosing between “the man drove the car” and “the man rested his hands on the steering wheel while invisible aliens used their tractor beams to move the road.” They’re both _possible_ interpretations of the scene, but the latter is more cumbersome and less likely and even hurts the film by introducing unnecessary elements. In my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/100 "2012-02-07T00:58:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything more I can say apart from repeating my previous posts with the evidence for why they must be robots (the electrical impulses, the communication with machines, the themes of the film). You think they were aliens. Fine. I thought they were robots – but while I was watching them I was actively annoyed by how much they looked/acted like aliens. _This is confusing as hell – and unnecessarily so,_ I thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=6)