# Commonly(and frustratingly) misunderstood plot points(spoilers, I guess) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920 "2012-02-06T01:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Maiira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Maiira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maiira)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/121 "2012-02-07T04:59:20Z")
Not necessarily plot, but…people complain that **Das Boot** was long and boring. That’s kind of the point, folks. And regarding **Blair Witch** , I could actually buy that they were lost for real, without the supernatural element. The supernatural stuff is fine, but aren’t New England woods supposed to be treacherous anyway? If Bill Bryson is to be believed, even people who know what they’re doing can get irretrievably lost. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/122 "2012-02-07T05:05:37Z")
> [@Maiira](#): > > And regarding **Blair Witch** , I could actually buy that they were lost for real, without the supernatural element. The supernatural stuff is fine, but aren’t New England woods supposed to be treacherous anyway? If Bill Bryson is to be believed, even people who know what they’re doing can get irretrievably lost. Perhaps, but they’re not in New England; they’re 50 miles from Washington DC. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/123 "2012-02-07T05:20:46Z")
I decided to stop fooling around and dig up my DVD of ST:TWOK. It’s the 2002 “Director’s Edition”, but I don’t expect there will be any relevant variation from the theatrical release. 01:07:02 - Kirk, McCoy, Saavik, Terrel and Checkov are in the Regula One station’s transporter room. Kirk communicates with Spock, asks for a damage report, gets the “by the book” reply. Spock says “restoration [of main power] may be possible in two days”, which Kirk interprets as meaning two hours. Kirk and the others beam down to the center of the Regula asteroid. From here, the action is essentially continuous, right up to “KHAAANN!” at 01:13:40. Then there’s a break in the action, and at 01:13:51, Saavik is on her communicator, trying to call the _Enterprise_. Characters that were previously standing are now sitting, and clearly some time has passed. McCoy says “He’s coming around” about Chekov. At 01:14:34, Kirk asks if there is anything to eat. Carol Marcus tells David Marcus to escort McCoy and Saavik to the Genesis Cave, which he does reluctantly. Carol and Kirk have a conversation, partly about David. The action is more-or-less continuous (with a brief cutaway scene of the _Reliant_ getting its impulse power restored and gearing up to finish off _Enterprise_). Carol Marcus says at 01:18:49, regarding the Genesis Cave: “Can I cook, or can’t I?” Then there is a break in the action, and _Reliant_ approaches the Regula One station, expecting to find and destroy _Enterprise_. To their surprise, _Enterprise_ is missing. Another break, and at 01:19:14, the camera is back at the Genesis Cave. Conversation is continuous until 01:20:07, when Kirk flips out his communicator and says “Kirk to Spock. It’s two hours. Are you ready?” So, I figure there are a little more than 12 minutes of film time representing two hours of actual time, and only a few places to fill in the gaps. 10 minutes between “Khaaan!” and the beginning of the scene where Kirk asks about food? Sure, why not? 30 minutes for _Reliant_ to circle the asteroid, looking for _Enteprise_? Sure, why not? An hour passes while _Reliant_ hovers around the station, pondering it’s next move, while everyone hangs around in the Genesis Cave? Okay. Well, that’s 12+10+30+60… and we’re still short by eight minutes. And just for good measure, I’ll watch the “Khaaan!” scene again with Nicholas Meyer’s audio commentary and Michael Okuda’s text commentary. Meyer’s just talking about general movie-making stuff, screenplays and junk (and amusing, he speaks negatively of the whole “director’s cut” concept of restoring scenes that were initially cut for being unnecessary) and Okuda’s text is about the technical aspects of the special effects and whatnot. As the “Khaan!” yell approaches, Meyer is talking about Ricardo Montalban’s dramatically understated and menacing delivery, and is talking about Montalban’s stage career while Shatner yells, with no commentary on Shatner’s performance at all, let alone that he was playing Kirk as “faking”. Okuda gives no indication in that direction, either. If you want to interpret it that way regardless, more power to you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/124 "2012-02-07T05:26:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > For the record, and I’m not getting dragged into this, I agree with **Bryan**. Y’all are over-analyzing the scene too much. [looks at comment, looks at my own post analyzing the film] Well, excuuuuuse me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/125 "2012-02-07T05:29:49Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > There appears to be at least two novelizations. > > [One](http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Last_Crusade_%28junior_novelization%29)is a ‘junior’ novel, by Ryder Wyndham. This is the one you linked. > [The other](http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Last_Crusade_%28novel%29)is a more adult one by Rob MacGreggor. I can’t find a preview of this. > > Its possible I’m misremembering. It’s 20 years since I read it, anyway. I figured as much. I did find a [searchable compilation](http://books.google.com/books?id=C8hqIUVGgzwC&dq=indiana+jones+macgregor&source=gbs_navlinks_s) (Amazon & Google are the best places to look) but it doesn’t include the final pages. Result for immortality is just the knight talking, but it’s not as clear - he’s talking more about the Grail itself and so it may be the author(s? - one version mentions his [wife]) was confused. I saw another version with that gave more hits on the word but no actual text; so possibly it was revised later. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/126 "2012-02-07T06:14:35Z")
Maiira writes: \> And regarding Blair Witch, I could actually buy that they were lost for real, \> without the supernatural element. The supernatural stuff is fine, but aren’t New \> England woods supposed to be treacherous anyway? If Bill Bryson is to be \> believed, even people who know what they’re doing can get irretrievably lost. There are two problems with this. First, _The Blair Witch Project_ takes place in Burkittsville, Maryland, nowhere near New England. Second, Bill Bryson never wrote about the New England woods, I believe. His book about his hiking experiences is about his walks in the Appalachians, nowhere near New England. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/127 "2012-02-07T12:51:03Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > There appears to be at least two novelizations. > > [One](http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Last_Crusade_%28junior_novelization%29)is a ‘junior’ novel, by Ryder Wyndham. This is the one you linked. > [The other](http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Last_Crusade_%28novel%29)is a more adult one by Rob MacGreggor. I can’t find a preview of this. > > Its possible I’m misremembering. It’s 20 years since I read it, anyway. Under plot differences, I don’t see anything about true immortality being hinted at. I have to think this would be mentioned on the wiki article if it were in the book. Most of the other changes are a lot more minor than that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/128 "2012-02-07T13:09:50Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Bill Bryson never wrote about the New England woods, I believe. His book about his hiking experiences is about his walks in the Appalachians, nowhere near New England. Well, your belief is incorrect. He walks the Appalachian Trail, which ends / begins in Maine. I remember the sections of the book which were about New England were quite hair-raising. Having said that, it is irrelevant to the Blair Witch Project. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/129 "2012-02-07T13:30:30Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Aliens, robots – > > Like the late Earl Warren? Earl Warren wasn’t a stripper! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/130 "2012-02-07T13:45:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you want to interpret it that way regardless, more power to you. Your interpretation fails utterly because it requires James Tiberius Kirk to just sit around and chill while he thinks the Enterprise is in danger. That would not ever happen. It’s one of Kirk’s defining traits. He was shrieking at Khan to get him to come down and face Kirk directly, rather than going after the Enterprise. Khan declined. Kirk – as astute observers realize – is not worried, because he knows from Spock that the Enterprise isn’t as helpless as she looks. And that there is a plan in place to get Kirk and the others back on board. If that were not the case, and Kirk _actually_ thought the Enterprise were as endangered as his shrieking indicated, he’d be moving Heaven and Earth to _do something_. But he doesn’t. He has a chat. Goes sightseeing in the Genesis cave. Noshes on some fruit. And calls Spock right on schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/131 "2012-02-07T15:02:15Z")
Well, you’re wrong, and any further commentary will be redundant re-iterations of “you’re wrong”. More power to you, though. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/132 "2012-02-07T15:19:55Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Your interpretation fails utterly because it requires James Tiberius Kirk to just sit around and chill while he thinks the Enterprise is in danger. You say that like the guy is a living person, as opposed to a TV/movie character written by multiple writers. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/133 "2012-02-07T15:20:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, you’re wrong Well, that settles it then. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/134 "2012-02-07T15:25:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > In\* The Flight of the Phoenix\*, Heinrich Dorfmann was the hero, survival in harsh circumstances requires those involved accept cold reality. Frank Towns’ inspirational inflexibility risked everyones lives and pointed out the lack of conviction and sacrifice Americans are willing to undergo during severe hardship. You’re right, but that’s not a hidden or secret message. The end result shows clearly that Dorfman was right all along. The only reason there’s ANY doubt about that in much of the audience’s minds is that the pilot is played by Jimmy Stewart, whom we’ve all come to see as the embodiment of American virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/135 "2012-02-07T16:08:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You say that like the guy is a living person, as opposed to a TV/movie character written by multiple writers. 😕 That is, literally, Kirk’s defining character trait. Was that character recognizably James Kirk? Then he doesn’t sit around chit-chatting while his ship is in danger. That has been a constant of his character no matter who was writing it. (except possibly in the slash fic.) > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, you’re wrong, and any further commentary will be redundant re-iterations of “you’re wrong”. > > More power to you, though. I think we all appreciate your conceding defeat here. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/136 "2012-02-07T16:32:45Z")
About the “KAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNN!!!” = frustration or not. How long after Kirk finds out that Kahn had his son killed does this scene come in? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/137 "2012-02-07T16:46:29Z")
Kirk’s son was killed in the next movie, by a Klingon. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/138 "2012-02-07T18:34:41Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Kirk’s son was killed in the next movie, by a Klingon. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/139 "2012-02-07T19:01:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > It’s from\*\* A League of Their Own\*\*. Dottie and her sister are players in a girl’s baseball league during WWII, with some friction between them. The sister is traded to a rival team, that just happens to be the opponents in the championship game. Dottie is the star player, but she has no plans to keep playing, she’s going home with her husband to do the family thing. The sister really has nothing going for her except baseball even though she’s really a mediocre player, and has always been in Dottie’s shadow. The scene in question is a play at the plate, with the sister attempting to score. Dottie is the catcher. There is a collision, Dottie drops the ball on purpose, allowing her sister to score and be the hero for once. Male bovine manure. Sister scored fair and square. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920/140 "2012-02-07T19:06:05Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Kirk’s son was killed in the next movie, by a Klingon. Wow, I always thought it was Kahn who killed his kid. In fairness, I saw the movie when I was in elementary school and haven’t seen it since. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/commonly-and-frustratingly-misunderstood-plot-points-spoilers-i-guess/611920.md?page=8)