# Communicating with the dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295 "2005-02-04T01:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/61 "2005-02-12T02:39:35Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > Who knows, ralph? It’s shotgun speculation… wide open and all over the place. > > Some people believe upon death we merge with God and know everything. Then Uncle Al could be very helpful… > Many reported incidents have dead loved ones warning about imminent danger to loved ones. Cite? > [@](#): > > These are few and far between They certainly are. [quote] but would indicate some foreknowledge. (In fact all spontaneous communications are few and far between, and solicited communications are extremely suspect).[.quote] How about citing an example of a legitimate one? > [@](#): > > Others report unresolved injustices, I’ve heard. You’ve “heard,” huh…well that settles it then, can’t argue with documentation like that, > [@](#): > > {My lawyer cheated us out of $20K} (not a real example). Can you _cite_ a real example? > [@](#): > > And - of course - if they’re communicating – and even more so, if we’re listening! > (DtC has his fingers in his ears). I’m listening. I will look at any evidence you want to offer up. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/62 "2005-02-12T03:11:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Psychics are no different. They are illusionists. They are performing an act. It’s a trick. **100% of the time** , it’s a trick. I’m sorry if that bugs some people but I’m trying to keep you from getting your money stolen. So, you’re a cynic for altruistic reasons? You assume that any manifestation of what we’ve come to call the paranormal is a trick, 100% of the time, in order to save us money? So, then, if money isn’t involved it may not be trickery, and is therefore out of your perview? Because these are the cases of which I speak. Where average, normal people start functioning outside the realm of chance and randomness and start obtaining information otherwise unavailable? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Show me a single authentic example of the “paranormal,” and I’ll listen. I don’t believe it. Sgt. Golinski of the 4th Infantry division engineers was able to find mines in the road that mine detectors and other trained observers missed. I interviewed him after the war and contacted several of his partners on his minesweep team. They corroborated his testimony. He didn’t get an extra nickel. All he did was save dozens of lives. Not even sure he got a medal. Now… Did you listen? Or are you going to reject this, too? Or explain it away, as I suspect you will. Or will you actually be open minded and say, “Well, it might have happened, I don’t know everything.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/63 "2005-02-12T03:23:07Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > So, you’re a cynic for altruistic reasons? > You assume that any manifestation of what we’ve come to call the paranormal is a trick, 100% of the time, in order to save us money? I was talking about professional psychics and yes…100% of the time they are frauds. > [@](#): > > So, then, if money isn’t involved it may not be trickery, and is therefore out of your perview? Because these are the cases of which I speak. Where average, normal people start functioning outside the realm of chance and randomness and start obtaining information otherwise unavailable? No they don’t. Not ever, not once. > [@](#): > > Sgt. Golinski of the 4th Infantry division engineers was able to find mines in the road that mine detectors and other trained observers missed. I interviewed him after the war and contacted several of his partners on his minesweep team. They corroborated his testimony. Some guy happens to trip over some landmines and I’m supposed to think it’s amazing? I don’t think so. This is the lamest kind of worthless, anecdotal rubbish. Let the guy perform under controlled conditions and he will be exposed in short order. He may actually be self-deluded and think he has magic powers but anecdotes are cheap. Let’s see him win the JREF money. > [@](#): > > He didn’t get an extra nickel. All he did was save dozens of lives. Not even sure he got a medal. Self-delusion and wild ass coincidence if anything happened at all, which O doubt. > [@](#): > > Now… Did you listen? Or are you going to reject this, too? Or explain it away, as I suspect you will. Listen to what? You haven’t provided any evidence. Anecdotes are not evidence. If you haven’t got something scientifically verifiable then you haven’t got anything. Get your little mine sweeper dude into a laboratory and you’ll see how full of crap he is. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/64 "2005-02-12T03:27:43Z")
> [@rippingtons\_fan](#): > > What’s the Straight Dope from the folks on the other side of the veil?? No communication going on here but I’m pretty sure my dead ancestors laugh whenever they watch me trying to look up their birth certificates and other records that went up in a fire or something in 1903. Bwahahaha, she’ll NEVER find the ship I was on! ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/65 "2005-02-12T03:53:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I was talking about professional psychics and yes…100% of the time they are frauds. > > No they don’t. Not ever, not once. > > Some guy happens to trip over some landmines and I’m supposed to think it’s amazing? I don’t think so. This is the lamest kind of worthless, anecdotal rubbish. Let the guy perform under controlled conditions and he will be exposed in short order. He may actually be self-deluded and think he has magic powers but anecdotes are cheap. Let’s see him win the JREF money. > > Self-delusion and wild ass coincidence if anything happened at all, which O doubt. > > Listen to what? You haven’t provided any evidence. Anecdotes are not evidence. If you haven’t got something scientifically verifiable then you haven’t got anything. Get your little mine sweeper dude into a laboratory and you’ll see how full of crap he is. Oh my god. DtC reacted EXACTLY like I predicted he would! That’s not psychic, it’s just astute observation and correlation of facts. You are a true cynic, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/66 "2005-02-12T03:55:53Z")
And that’s not all… ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/67 "2005-02-12T03:58:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m listening. I will look at any evidence you want to offer up. No, you aren’t, and you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/68 "2005-02-12T04:12:33Z")
**EvanS** You didn’t offer any evidence. You told us a story. You didn’t even provide proof that Golinski existed. Evidence would be the military records of Golinski and his partners. This would prove that they existed, and were assigned to minesweeper duty. I have never served in the military, but I assume that minesweepers keep official logs, something like '1600 hours. The metal detector indicated a possible mine at coordinates whatever. We confirmed the mine. Private Eye and General motors used the doohickey to disarm and remove the mine. It was extracted at 1700 hours.". What do the logs say about the day the sergeant found mines on a hunch? Can you provide a complete and unaltered transcript of the interviews you conducted with the other soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/69 "2005-02-12T04:21:29Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **EvanS** > > You didn’t offer any evidence. You told us a story. You didn’t even provide proof that Golinski existed. Evidence would be the military records of Golinski and his partners. This would prove that they existed, and were assigned to minesweeper duty. I have never served in the military, but I assume that minesweepers keep official logs, something like '1600 hours. The metal detector indicated a possible mine at coordinates whatever. We confirmed the mine. Private Eye and General motors used the doohickey to disarm and remove the mine. It was extracted at 1700 hours.". What do the logs say about the day the sergeant found mines on a hunch? Can you provide a complete and unaltered transcript of the interviews you conducted with the other soldiers? You assume too much **DC** (Hmmm. are you related to **DtC**?) You know what they say about assuming things? In wartime, it turns out, they don’t keep logs; they’re too busy. The daylogs say they found x number of mines, but that was made by the company clerk from verbal reports. The daylogs also report that the mine detectors broke down and the squad was unable to keep them functioning. Sue, I can provide “a complete and unaltered transcript of the interviews (I) conducted with the other soldiers” – give me a good reason why I should. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/70 "2005-02-12T04:27:09Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > In wartime, it turns out, they don’t keep logs; they’re too busy. Fair enough. That leaves the military records proving that Golinski and the rest existed, and were minesweepers. > [@](#): > > Sue, I can provide “a complete and unaltered transcript of the interviews (I) conducted with the other soldiers” – give me a good reason why I should. Because you made a claim. The burden of proof is on you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/71 "2005-02-12T04:30:45Z")
So in other words you have nothing verifiable. All you have is (maybe) some anedotes from ther squad members. Anecdotal evidence is subjective, unreliable and untestable. Unless this minesweeper can demonstrate his ability in a test-controlled, repeatable manner, you do not actually have anything approaching scientific evidence. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/72 "2005-02-12T06:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Sue, I can provide “a complete and unaltered transcript of the interviews (I) conducted with the other soldiers” – give me a good reason why I should. Because you are attempting to persuade a number of skeptical correpondents that they should not dismiss all your claims as wholly fabricated stories that you have created from thin air simply to make a(n unsupportable) point on a message board. (There are alos any number of “viewers at home” whom you would wish to also persuade.) Simply recounting an anecdote that could easily have been imagined and typed on the spot will utterly fail to persuade either your opponenets or the audience at home. Providing some sort of evidence that _something_ happened wil, at least, make it appear that you are not creating the incident out of whole cloth. (And if you take the time to manufacture a nonexistent interview, at least you are demonstrating that you have enough belief in your topic to take the time to invent some details to support it.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/73 "2005-02-12T10:13:44Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > That’s because probably all professional mediums are fakes. > Doesn’t mean _the phenomenon_ doesn’t exist. Um, it doesn’t mean the phenomenon exists either! All we ask for is evidence. If \*\*every single occurrence \*\* of a phenomenon is a fraud to earn money, do you still think it’s worth investigating? Do you pay to see the 3 card trick in the street? > [@EvanS](#): > > I couldn’t prove lightning exists under Randi’s conditions. What ‘conditions’ do you mean? ‘At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test.’ > **[Home](https://web.randi.org)** > > JREF Seems easy to me to prove the existence of lightning using the above. (Ever heard of Benjamin Franklin?) > [@EvanS](#): > > (But David Copperfield made lightning appear once, so it must be fake anyway.) aS YOU WOULD SAY: Can you not see how weak an argument that is? It doesn’t even meet the criteria of logic. > [@EvanS](#): > > And all the world’s biggest deceptions have come about because the few convinced the many that they (the few) already had all the answers, and there was no need (for the many) to think for themselves. Or to ask questions. Actually all the frauds work because people don’t look for the evidence and do scientific testing. > [@EvanS](#): > > Declaring something does not exist because one has not seen evidence is just the other side of the coin from believing something does exist because one has been tricked. Declaring someone knows anything 100% is a mixture of ignorance and arrogance. It is true that one should gather masses of evidence before making a scientific judgement. Now I am the President of the British Society of Levitation. We **guarantee** \* to teach you to levitate (for a very reasonable non-refundable fee of $100,000). Anyone can do this - it’s just the power of the mind that defeats gravity. Please be aware of the sheer power involved. You will need breathing apparatus if you levitate a few thousand feet. You will need a spacesuit if you wish to visit another planet. EvanS, please explain whether you will be taking up this offer. Finally, do look in a diary. You will notice that phases of the Moon, plus any eclipses are clearly stated 100%. Do tell us whether astronomers are arrogant or stupid. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295/74 "2005-02-12T10:17:23Z")
here is the British Society of Levitation’s guarantee: - ‘The only thing that prevents the mental power of levitation working is if a non-believer is present. The resulting negative quantum effect nullifies the levitation.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communicating-with-the-dead/288295.md?page=3)