# Communism..............Works **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2002, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309 "2002-04-24T07:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/61 "2002-04-26T11:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Communists predicting the imminent end of capitalism \*\* How did you get the idea I was a communist? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/62 "2002-04-26T14:31:24Z")
\>\> How did you get the idea I was a communist? Seeing the title is “Communism…Works” there must be a communist hiding somewhere in this thread. Where’s Joe McCarthy when you need him? ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/63 "2002-04-26T14:58:22Z")
Joe just called, he pointed me to the following statement by _alleged_ **Red** Schnitte: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > \*\*… The game is not over yet, if you ask me; this “end of history” thing that was announced after the collapse of the USSR, followed by an everlasting reign of prosperity and capitalism throughout the Western world, was nothing but an illusion (as is the notion that capitalism provides wealth for everybody on Earth - I’m sure you’ll contradict, but global capitalism does exploit the Third World. Which is not to say I’m opposed to globalization - I’m just opposed to the current unfair form of globalization). > … \*\* Are we being the devils advocate, or are we being a full blown commie in this passage \*\*Comrade Schnitte? \*\* Not that I mind any of the two, mind you; it’s a free world (and a lot more so post 1991). It does make sense to call an apple an apple though for purpose of clarity in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/64 "2002-04-26T15:07:04Z")
I was just contradicting capitalist arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/65 "2002-04-26T15:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > **I was just contradicting capitalist arrogance.** ‘Kay, not that this thread is about whether you’re a commie or not. So to not continue this hijack I’ll shift that a little to fit the topic at hand. Your statement implies that you are not a capitalist which I surmise places you somewhere in the red spectrum. However, even Socialism and the liberal left embraces capitalism and a market economy, albeit regulated. Is that a concession to the fact that Communism _doesn’t_ work or is it? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/66 "2002-04-26T16:25:57Z")
Heh heh heh. It was actually interesting to disabuse poor Komnosol of his illusions when I thought he wasn’t trolling. Hey, Kommie, if you post the same topic three times in a row and hear the exact same answers provided by 90% of the posters, you might just want to a) Think about them , or that’s too hard b) Read them. You don’t appear to be doing that. We are not here to polish your Communist ideology. We are posting opposition. If you need three identical posts to understand what we are saying, then perhaps you need to go back and take another look. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/67 "2002-04-26T16:49:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I was just contradicting capitalist arrogance. I point out that communism isn’t nearly as successful as capitalism and suddenly I’m an Arrogant Capitalist. And just for the record, nothing you have said contradicts that. To contradict that you would need proof that your system is more successful, all the evidence directly points to just the opposite. I know, I know…wait and see. ::waiting:: ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/68 "2002-04-26T16:57:22Z")
\>\> I was just contradicting capitalist arrogance That is always the last shot when you know you’ve lost an argument. Call the other side “arrogant” by mere virtue of being right. How dare they be right! (This thread is not about anyone’s arrogance, such thread would belong in the pit.) ---
**Author:** ![Demosthenesian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Demosthenesian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demosthenesian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/69 "2002-04-26T17:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Read them. You don’t appear to be doing that. We are not here to polish your Communist ideology. We are posting opposition. If you need three identical posts to understand what we are saying, then perhaps you need to go back and take another look. Well, actually, I kind was, just because I figured that if someone was going to so doggedly advocate something they might as well learn what it actaully **is** first. Y’know, fighting ignorance, if you accept the proposition that intelligent people can advocate this sort of thing (and they do, although I don’t). Better information means better debate, right? Frankly, my time seems wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Demosthenesian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Demosthenesian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demosthenesian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/70 "2002-04-26T17:23:42Z")
KIND OF was. (No editing function, Dem! Get it right the first time!) Ok then, an extra point: The figures that sparc presented earlier doesn’t exactly prove a growing middle class, but a growing upper class, especially when you subdivide that “upper 10%” that he was talking about. It seems like there’s a pretty clear trend towards polarization, but it’s not necessarily clear as to why. The Marxists don’t seem to have any useful answers, but better that than saying “there’s a growing middle class!” when you include Bill Gates in said “middle class”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/71 "2002-04-26T17:44:29Z")
[hijack] I wonder what Marx would have said about Karl marx. One the one hand, he’s the world’s greatest capitalist; on the other hand, he pays his employees very well, gives them excellent wrking conditions and even stock options (and if that’s not collective ownership…), and he doesn’t even exploit the workers who _don’t_ work for him - after all, poor people don’t buy software. In fact, he has no contact with the “working class” whatsoever. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/72 "2002-04-26T17:45:02Z")
[hijack] I wonder what Marx would have said about Bill Gates. One the one hand, he’s the world’s greatest capitalist; on the other hand, he pays his employees very well, gives them excellent wrking conditions and even stock options (and if that’s not collective ownership…), and he doesn’t even exploit the workers who _don’t_ work for him - after all, poor people don’t buy software. In fact, he has no contact with the “working class” whatsoever. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/73 "2002-04-26T18:01:06Z")
Darn. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/74 "2002-04-26T18:05:19Z")
Where are **Olentzero** and **oldscratch** when you need them? Heck, those were some Marxists you could ARGUE with. If some capitalist came up with some statistics they might argue against them, or show they were irrelevant, or at least TRY in some way. And they’d bring up stuff on their own, like unions or Hutterites or the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. Ah, these kids today… Look, arguing that communism will work when, by your definition, there has never been an industrialized communist society is an uphill battle. You’re going to have to face some opposing viewpoints, like 99% of the population of North America and 98% of the population of Europe. That doesn’t mean that we’re RIGHT, only that we have what we think are good reasons to support liberal democratic capitalism. If you want people to change their minds, you have to give them some reason to change their minds. Otherwise, they won’t change their minds. See? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/75 "2002-04-26T21:21:01Z")
I just thought I’d remind everyone that today is the 16th anniversary of the Chernobyl accident where many thousands died and many more became very sick and are still suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/76 "2002-04-30T15:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > **Where are Olentzero and oldscratch when you need them? Heck, those were some Marxists you could ARGUE with.** Tip o’ the cap to you, sir. 😃 I already been through this deal with Jojo’s “abolition of money” thread which went on for 8 pages. Most of y’all know where I stand on the subject, so I figure I’ll just pick and choose which threads to post in from now on. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/77 "2002-04-30T15:49:40Z")
\>\> Jojo’s “abolition of money” thread Yeah, that was a good one too. A pity they didn’t read it in Argentina where the banks are closed and they seem to be having some problems getting around without money. If only the Argentinians had read that thread! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Sexchange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@Dr.Sexchange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Sexchange)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/78 "2002-04-30T16:06:56Z")
Unfortunately, Stalin was NOT a communist, he was a dictator who, as far as I can see, really didn’t have any marxist ideals. Therefore, any comments about Stalin, in my eyes, really is not a valid argument about communism. Russia was much better off as a communist state before Stalin took over, for the simple reason that he was not a communist and he decided to take advantage of the system. Maybe it really doesn’t work, maybe people like Stalin and the stubborness of non-communist countries will always force communism to fail, but I don’t think “democracy” and the free market systems are ideal, or will last forever. I think that government is constantly forced to evolve and change, and even if a country was to become communist tomorrow and be successful, it won’t last forever, just like the United States and capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/79 "2002-04-30T16:18:15Z")
Optional communism may work briefly for small groups, within the confines of a working capitalist system. Eventually, if (when) those with greater skills grow tired of supporting the slackers, they can opt out of the community. But that’s a good thing about capitalism - anyone with resources can form a little commune. If the commune starts to run dry, funds can be replenished from the surrounding capitalist society. However the only way to run an entire country under communism is to enforce it and not allow capitalist splinter groups - in effect taking away the freedom to pursue one’s own potential. Capitalism can’t exist within communism - it defeats the purpose. As soon as you allow any capitalism, the entire society becomes capitalist, with those remaining faithful to communism condemning themselves to exist within the lowest common denominator of their society. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309/80 "2002-04-30T16:36:25Z")
Let me hereby proclaim **Schnitte’s Law** : No matter how often and how extensively it has been treated before, SDMB debates about the survival and realization abilities of communism will never cease. Just like the question whether a store can legally refuse accepting $100 bills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communism-works/105309.md?page=5)