communism

Svin:

You keep saying that. That poor people are a product of the capitalist system.

This however, is a complete falsehood. There were poor people in Communist Russia, in fact, the disparity between the the most privileged in Russia, and the most poor was greater in Russia than it is in the US.

It is also that way in China, and Cuba.

The wealth disparity has proven itself to be greater under Socialist regimes than Capitalist ones.

Indeed, Poverty predates capitalism, as we had poor people in ancient times under feudalism, totalitarianism. We have had poor people in all societies throughout all times.

Seeing as this is true, it seems to me that your contention that Capitalism creates a poor class is a complete and obvious falsehood.

It’s ‘he’.
Answer this one question - Would poor, undeveloped countries be better off if we pulled out all our factories, investments and whatnot and left them to their own devices?
And assuming for a second that you and Chumpsky are right - that capitalism is an amoral, imperialist system that crushes the poor in order to make tiny elite wealty beyond comprehension. Please explain to me how anything would be the slightest bit better under a communist system.

FDI=“Foreign Direct Investment” This is direct investment in another country’s economy. For instance, FDI is when a company goes overseas and builds a factory in another country.

The other kind of foreign investment is “Foreign Portfolio Investment.” FPI is when a company buys shares of a foreign stock, buys foreign government bonds, buys foreign currency, and the like.

Hope that clears things up. I still don’t get the distinction completely either.

Sorry if it didn’t come off this way, but I intended the comment to mean something like…“Your job - love it or leave it.”

Aha! I completely agree with you, Mr. Svinlesha! Unfettered laissez-faire capitalism can become destructive, not because capitalism is bad, but because unfettered capitalism eventually desintigrates into monopolies and exploitation, something decidedly not capitalism.

A very obtuse analogy follows: :wink:

A hot pot of water is, quite possibly, the best way humanity has devised to cook vegetables. However, if we adopt a “let it be” attitude, over an extended period of time, the pot of hot water won’t cook the vegetables, because over time, the water becomes cool. Thus, there needs to be a burner in place in order to ensure that the pot of water stays hot, and will therefore, cook the vegetables. We “alter” the circumstances of the hot water in order that it remains productive. Of course, there is no way for any system of cooking vegetables so that they become perfectly-tasting. Humanity is still working on the perfect seasoning.

It’s the same with capitalism.

Capitalism is, quite possibly, the best way humanity has devised to produce wealth. However, if we adopt a laissez-faire attitude, over an extended period of time, capitalism becomes destructive. Thus, there needs to be necessary regulation in place in order to ensure that capitalism remains under control, and will therefore, create wealth. We “alter” the circumstances of capitalism in order that it remains productive. Of course, there is no way for any economic system to be perfectly fair and just for all members of society. Humanity is still working on the perfect regulations.

:slight_smile:

Random thoughts:

Would any of the communism advocates here (or “anti-capitalists”, if you prefer) care to give an example of a communist society that was succesful? If it’s superior to capitalism, then it would stand to reason that there would be at least some examples out there. Or has every communist society in the history of the world been squashed by capitalists before it had a chance to prove itself?

Chumpsky - you said that you’re not poor and bitter, that you’re actually doing quite well, thank you very much. If that’s the case, would you say that your relative level of success is completely due to blind luck?

And when it comes to making toast, my DVD player is an utter failure. The point of capitalism is not “economic equality” at all, so it can’t be judged on whether or not it succeeds at that. Economic equality is the promise of communism. Capitalism promises equality of opportunity, and I think that in the vast majority of cases, it does pretty darned well.

On the contrary, I think the comment about Wal-Mart is a pretty concise summary of the philosophy regarding how to function in a capitalist society. If you don’t like your lot, then change it. I kinda like it that way. May ask what analogous mechanism exists in a communist society? If you’re unhappy with your financial situation in Commu-land, what then? Assuming, of course, that the Secret Police don’t hunt you down and have you jailed for your unpatriotic dissatisfaction.
Jeff

Scylla:

Okay. If I were to claim that the poverty found in Russia, China, or Cuba was a product of their communist economic policies (a charge that’s often made), would you argue, on the same basis, that such a statement was false? Does the fact that poor people have always existed serve to justify the inequities of communism?

I ask because it seems obvious to me that while poverty is an endemic human condition, it nevertheless remains true that the poverty/income disparities extant in any given society is a direct result of that society’s particular economic system – communist, socialist, feudal, capitalist, or what have you.

msmith:

Well, that’s two questions, technically.

In some cases, yes, in some cases, no. In some cases I think it would not impact on poverty in developing countries one way or the other at all. Just off the top of my head, I imagine that poor farmers, bargaining collectively on the world market with products like bananas or coffee, would see an immediate and dramatic improvement in their standard of living. On the other hand, we would probably have to shell out a few more pennies for a cup o’ joe. But I also grant you that there might be cases in which a bad situation turns even worse, since ”negative economic growth” in a capitalist world system always affects the poor disproportionately.

But a more interesting, and fruitful, question, in my opinion, would be: how can we structure our investments in the developing world in such a way that it would lead to sustainable growth and an improvement for the population of those countries? And my point is that if we rely solely on the dictates of a capitalism, as outlined above, that will never happen.

*God forbid. But clearly, restricting private ownership of the means of production would limit, at least, the mind-boggling economic disparities that plague today’s system, if there was some way to go about accomplishing such a task. In other words, such a system, implemented in good faith, would redistribute wealth so that, at the very least, people would have access to necessary medicines, food, clean water, and so forth.

Anyway, you realize that neither Chumpsky nor I advocate communism in the sense it’s commonly understood. Historically, anarchist and communists have always had problems with each other, especially after that distasteful Spanish incident. Chumpsky, I suspect, is arguing for a system of workers collectives – along the lines of anarcho-syndicalism. Under such a system, the workers in a given factory would own and run it, and make important economic decisions democratically. Such a system, if implemented at a national level, would involve the elimination of the “capitalist” class as an entity. (For what it’s worth, I’ve heard that Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream is run according to this principle.) I’m not all that terribly familiar with the details concerning how anarcho-syndicalism works in practice, however, nor am I completely sure I can speak for Chump on this matter.

soup:

*Seriously – why not “Your job – love it or fight to improve it”? Why is it that Wal-Mart gets to set all the conditions, and earn billions of dollars of revenue a year, while its poor workers are consigned to simply live under the standards it imposes?

That too. I’m all for fighting to change company policies to make them better for one’s self.

But, the leverage inherent in the system is a product of capitalist thought. Under communism, you would have to “grin and bear it.” Under capitalism, however, you have the choice not to work. You have the choice to work for a compeditor. You have the choice to unionize and collectively bargain. If the corporation wants your labor, they’d better be willing to pay you a good price for it.

The corporations don’t hold all the cards in capitalism. Some cards belong to labor.

That said, Wal-Mart’s anti-union policies, if what Chumpsky says is true, are incredibly unfair.

Svin:

yes.

What inequities are we specifically referring to?

[quote[I ask because it seems obvious to me that while poverty is an endemic human condition, it nevertheless remains true that the poverty/income disparities extant in any given society is a direct result of that society?s particular economic system ? communist, socialist, feudal, capitalist, or what have you. [/quote]

Those are mutually exclusive statements.

It it’s endemic to the human condition, than it’s not a direct result of a country’s political system, it’s a direct result of the human condition.

Would we not have poverty in a pure anarchy?

You seem to wish to blame government or economic systems for poverty. I can see no good reason to do so, and reject the proposition unless you can show me that economic systems create poverty.


I would maintain that poverty exists as a direct result of man’s tendency to try to gain advantage over his fellow man.

  1. Revenue is not profit. Your post is (intentionally?) misleading. Far more money is paid out in wages than Wal Mart earns in profit. Cite

  2. Consigned? I think soup’s point was that people are free to go find another job at any time. I think that would be the antithesis of consigned.

Also, it should be pointed out that Wal Mart has made more millionares out of their “poor workers” than any other company (perhaps other than Microsoft).

Here we would have to decide first on what we will attribute to the U.S. as a cause of death. Do we count only direct killing, or more indirect killing? Do we count killing carried out by proxies, or only by ourselves? Do we count crimes of omission or only comission? etc.

To give you an idea of the kinds of difficulties such a calculation runs into, consider just the issue of starvation. Of the approximately 24,000 people who die from starvation every day, we can place a lower limit on the number that we could prevent from starving to death at 10,000. In fact, the number is probably much higher, and was much higher still in the past, but just for the sake of argument, let’s say 10,000. That is, if we were willing, we could prevent 10,000 deaths by starvation every day. In fact, every few years, UNICEF puts out a study detailing how much it would cost to alleviate starvation world-wide, and to provide basic necessities like health care and housing to the entire world. The estimates are usually around $40 billion in additional funds. That is about 1/10 of the U.S. military budget.

So, if we take the 10,000 dying of starvation every day, then that is more than 3 million per year, and in 3 decades you get to 100 million. That is a pretty conservative estimate, I think.

Some might say that the devastation of the Third World is merely due to the failure of the rich countries to be giving enough, that if only we were more generous that these things wouldn’t happen. I think this is an error. As you can see from the above calculation, it would take only a miniscule effort on the part of the rich countries to alleviate a massive amount of suffering in the world. A simple reduction of the war budget by 10%, and the redirecting of these resources to the world’s poor would have a HUGE effect in alleviating world poverty. It is such a simple thing that it simply CANNOT be an error. It must be deliberate. And this is only counting the failure to alleviate suffering.

Then we can discuss the economic policies that the rich countries pursue that deliberately keep countries poor. The main enterprise of the financial institutions of the rich countries, in particular the U.S., is to maintain the dichotomy in wealth that exists in countries around the world, commonly referred to as the North/South divide, or the First World/Third World division. As Svinlesha has explained well, in order for vast wealth to be created in the rich capitalist countries, it is necessary for capitalist economies to expand their exploitation of the poor. Around the end of the 19th century, the capitalist countries had just about maxed out their ability to exploit the poor in their own countries, and it was at this time that imperialism exploded. I would reference Lenin’s essay “Imperialism: The highest stage of capitalism” for information on the explosion of imperialism, linked to earlier in this thread. While I disagree with almost everything Lenin had to say, his critique of imperialism was spot-on, and, of course, the situation has become many times worse in the ensuing 80 years.

In short, the situation in many of the poor countries in the world is a direct result of policies that are carried out in the rich countries, which are designed to deliberately keep the poor countries poor. Therefore, the deaths from starvation in these countries are attributable to imperialism, mostly U.S. imperialism, which has been by far the dominant power in the world for 50 years.

Imperialism is simply the enforcing of your will onto other countries. Imperialism is often conflated with military conquest, but this really misses the point. Imperialism is carried out by a variety of mechanisms, notably these days by international economic institutions which regulate trade, like the IMF, WTO and World Bank. The penalties for not following the orders of these institutions can be very severe, up to and including complete destruction, as was achieved, for example, in Vietnam and Nicaragua.

Obviously not. Rome was pretty imperialist, as was China in the middle ages, etc.

Yes. This is not something that is even really debatable. The U.S. is by far the most dominant empire that has ever existed on Earth. We have more power over more countries and more people, both absolutely and relative to the world’s population, than any country has ever had. The U.S. maintains a military presence in 120 of 191 U.N. member states, and the economic system organized and dominated by the U.S. reaches its tentacles into every corner of the globe.

I don’t think there is a simple formula saying that the more socialist/capitalist the wealthier or whatever. There are many more factors to account for than simply the economic system. The most important factors contributing to a country’s wealth are those that have little to do with the economic system, such as the natural resources of the country, it’s accessibility for trade, and so on. Certainly, the economic system plays a large role, but it isn’t the only factor.

My criticisms of capitalism are not directed at its ability to create wealth. Clearly, capitalism can and does create vast wealth. This isn’t really debatable. You will recall, in fact, that Marx was greatly impressed with the ability of capitalism to create wealth and to destroy the old institutions of feudalism. The problems with capitalism have to do with the distribution of wealth, and the exploitative class structure that it creates. So, for example, despite the highly oppressive social structures that existed under feudalism, in the feudal system everybody had a place in society, and had a right to live. Under capitalism you do not have a right to live, but only a right to try to get what you can from the market. It is only reforms grafted onto the capitalist structure that give people the right to live–it would not exist under a pure capitalist system.

There is a common mistake being made in this thread by equating socialism with totalitarianism. Socialism, as envisaged by classical socialist thinkers, is a system that is democratic in the economic sphere. The distiniguishing characteristic of socialism is worker control of the means of production. It seeks to eliminate private property, by which is mean private ownership of the means of production, and to place these under the control of the workers.

In the history of socialist thought, there have been several divisions, but perhaps the most important is that between anarchists and communists. Communists advocated a “dictatorship of the proletariat,” which mean, in reality, a dictatorship of the Vanguard Party in Leninism. This has led, almost everywhere, to totalitarianism and autocracy, probably the only exception being Cuba. The theory is that once the dictatorship of the proletariat is consolidated that the state will whither away, bringing a new era of direct democracy and equality. Clearly, this has not happened. On the other side of the division, anarchists have thought that the way to achieve direct democracy and socialism is just to do it, that you don’t need to go through the dictatorship of the proletariat to do it. So, for example, the Spanish anarchists took control of a large part of Spain in 1936, and succeeded in creating what is probably the most successful modern socialist society, where you had direct democracy, workers councils running the factories, etc.

Personally, I attach myself to the anarchist tradition, and think that the best model for a modern society is the anarchist model. That said, I do not think there is only one way to arrange an economy. Basically, what I think we should do is experiment, try different ways of organizing our economy, under the principle that all authority should be questioned, and that the goal of an economy is to create a healthy society based on principles of equality, justice and solidarity.

I think that this mistake would be rectified if you would give us some examples of socialist/communist societies. The ones I know about like the soviet Union, China have had a terrible record of oppression and general killing of large segments of their society. I have a hard time giving credence to arguments that communism will is better for people with these examples of oppression by communist regimes.

Some questions about the functionality of a system in which the workers in a company own said company “collectively”:

  • If I decide to start a new company, are there restrictions on the people I may hire?

  • Would there be any significance to seniority? Assuming all decisions are based on a democratic vote, would someone who had worked there for one day have the same amount of say as someone who had worked there for 30 years?

  • Would it be legal to have differing pay for different positions within the company?

  • If someone wasn’t pulling their weight, could they be fired?

  • How would the hiring process work? Would decisions be made by one person, or by all workers?

  • Could a person quit voluntarily, or would they have to receive leave by majority vote?

  • If two companies decided to merge, how would the mechanics of the merger work? What if there were duplicate positions that were unnecessary? How would the companies decide who to let off? Could they be let off?

  • How would pay increases be handled? Could anyone propose a pay increase? Would there be designated “Who wants a raise?” voting days? If the decision is made democratically, how do you ensure that raises are not given out inappropriately (eg, in a way that hurts the company’s performance)?

  • Would paid overtime be legal? Who would determine if and when overtime for a given employee was appropriate?

I’m genuinely curious about this. This sort of collectivism seems inherently unworkable to me, yet if Mr. Sven and Chumpsky have such strong opinions about this, it would stand to reason that they’d thought it through and come up with answers to most, if not all, of the above questions.
Jeff

ElJeffe,

The answer to all of your questions is, “However we decide to do it.” The point is that how we arrange an economic system under socialist principles should be done democratically. So, it would be done however the people decide. You could decide, for example, that we should have a minimum wage for everybody, regardless if they work or not, or we could decide that everyone has to work, and so on.

I will try to respond more fully to all of your questions later, but in the meantime, you might find this site useful:
www.parecon.org

Hmmm, since you accept the fact that capitalism creates wealth and not merely transfers it from one group to another, I am curious about your objection to the distribution aspect. It seems obvious to me that he who creates, owns. Do you also disagree with copyright law that prevents people from stealing the work of an artist or composer?

If the wealth would not have existed without the creator (the capitalist), how could anyone be better off under a system that fails to create that wealth?

Re: the 100 million deaths allegedely caused by capitalism imperialism:

You have one major incorrect assumption, and you are begging one major question in this statement. You’re assuming the 24000/day figure (rounded down to 10,000) has been constant for 30 years. I don’t see how this could be true, since the human population overall has increased by more than 50% since 1972. You have no basis for assuming absolute starvation numbers are accurate over a 30-year period.

You’re also assuming the 24000 figure is accurate, but I’ll concede that one.

The question you are begging is this: In 1972, the USSR was alive and kicking, as was communist China, which is still around. If you give blame for sins of ommission to the capitalists (i.e. they didn’t prevent the preventable 10,000 deaths/day), why don’t the USSR and China deserve some blame as well? The USSR alone had an immense military, with nuclear and conventional forces that matched or outnumbered the Americans. They were geographically much closer to the famine-stricken areas in Asia and Africa. If communism is such a noble system of government, why didn’t the USSR take steps to prevent this orgy of starvation that, according to you, began 30 years ago?

Please allow me to form this table based on your written statements in this thread:

Capitalist Benefits: Due to pure luck
Capitalist Problems/Omissions: Due to evil greedy capitalists
Communist Benefits: Due to the noble worker spirit
Communist Problems/Omissions: Due to evil greedy capitalists

Do you have a house? A car? Any personal possessions whatsoever? Your failure to sell them and give the proceeds to a hungry person is an unacceptable act of pure evil. You’re making a ridiculously easy accusation (“You should have done something!”) while ignoring the possibility of corrupt local governments that may make it impossible for a well-meaning nation to ease starvation.

The Soviet Union was around for most of those 80 years (1917 onward), as was communist China (1949 onward). If the problems of starvation are so easy to solve, why didn’t they just solve them? Maybe Stalin and Mao were too busy starving their own populations (unlike your ridiculous 100-million “sins of omission” figure, the murder by starvation of tens of millions of Soviets and Chinese can be laid directly on their own governments) to worry about the rest of the world.

Hmm, so the Soviet invasions of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Afghanistan (plus their annexing of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) don’t count, somehow?

List, please. I’m curious how loosely you define the term “military presence”. Would a handful of marines gaurding the local American embassy count, for example?

As for American tentacles, maybe the local populations like blue jeans and Coca-Cola. Unless you consider that possibility, you simply have no basis for speaking on behalf of the masses. So, are the masses stupid or simply misguided? Tell us, please.

The Soviet Union had HUGE natural resources at its disposal, as one might expect from (by far) the largest country in the world. If politcs and economics are relatively minor, why weren’t the Soviets the wealthist nation on Earth? Even if you dismiss up to half their territory as permanently frozen, Russia alone is larger than the 48-contiguous American states (i.e. excluding Alaska as frozen and Hawaii as resource-insignificant).

Complete and utter bullshit. Tell me, if you were placed in a feudal system, would you want to be a Lord or a serf? If everyone has a right to live, it shouldn’t really make much difference to you. In reality, though, the Lords had casual life-and-death power over the lower classes, and your “place” was determined by your birth, something over which you have no control.

Comparing feudalism to capitalism is incorrect, anyway. You should be comparing fuedalism to democracy. Under a capitalist democracy (since the two work very well together), you do have a right to live. While the U.S. has a rather strong love-affair going with capital punishment, many other capitalist democracies do not and have not for decades. Aside from capital punishment, what hypothetical capitalist democracy were you thinking of where people could be casually killed and the killed unpunished? Please keep in mind that I said “capitalist democracy”, so this would rule out capitalist fascist states, i.e. ones that have official death squads.

You’ve done this a lot; criticizing capitalism based on its most extreme form (which rarely exists) while shrugging off flaws in the basic design of communism. Your earlier description of a hypothetical factory where every issue is decided by vote would fall apart within weeks. Communes can work, I’ll stipulate, on a small scale with a few hundred people dedicated to fairly simple production (agrarian, for example), but a factory complex organized along the same lines would inevitably encounter problems that can’t be solved with a simple vote.

Well, not me, since I’ve been equating communism with totalitarianism. Socialism is just a handy vague term that could cover everything from a green-stamps program to nationalizing every major industry. Canada is more socialist than the United States, but this really just means we pay higher taxes to get more government services. The Scandinavian countries get more services than Canadians, and accordingly pay higher taxes. Only socialism at its extreme, which is how you seem to be defining it, would entail “worker control of the means of production” (though Merriem-Webster chooses instead to define the term more accurately as state, rather than worker control). If you want to keep using the word “socialism”, please keep in mind that there are degrees to it, some of which are not incompatable with capitalism. The trick is knowing where the demarcation should be, as in letting the capitalists generate wealth, then taxing them (though not so much they go out of business) and using those taxes to make sure everyone gets to eat. The Americans draw that line in one place, while the Swedes put it somewhere else. Neither of them is dumb enough to make it impossible for the capitalists to generate the wealth in the first place.

What about equality, justice and freedom? Why is solidarity so crucial?

Capitalists do not create wealth. Or, at least, they do not create wealth by themselves. It takes an entire society working together to create wealth, therefore, just according to the standard of distributing wealth to those who create it, the entire society should benefit. Warren Buffet, for example, has never created anything in his life. Bill Gates has never created anything, apart from stealing and modifying an operating system. Why should they reap the lion’s share of wealth that they had only a minimal role in creating? Essentially, capitalists are parasites who garner wealth to themselves that they did not create.

To reply to the OP a bit more directly:

Lack of balance was the principle failure mode for communism.

When all workers are the de-facto employee of the government, enormous abuses are possible if no restraint is placed on the government’s power. Unethical or simply oblivious leadership leads to starving people in factories making ICBMs. An improvement would be to introduce some sort of people’s representation or constitutional baseline standard of living on the distribution mechanism.

Another variable is at play is in how much property is community owned. Not all goods need to be production controlled; a system in which the planners direct 100% of the nation’s output is a poor one since no one can get things like Brittany Spears CDs. An improvement here would be to define some threshold or special class of goods that are maintained by the commune, such as staple foods, roads, buildings, etc; below which a free market operates for personal discretion.

Last Achille’s Heel is that innovation is stifled in a communist system, which isn’t so bad for the first 5 years, but it takes a toll after that. I’m not sure what could be done about that - except perhaps to devote a segment of the workers to figuring out how to improve the productivity of the rest. But in principle, there’s no one to compete with, so it’s not an especially effective thing in the long run.

Although I’m no strong proponent of communism, it would be interesting to see what impact modern communication and data management systems would have on the effectiveness of a command economy.

Hope that sheds some light on why it doesn’t work so well. I feel that some things are just implementation issues like having some popular representation in the mix, but others are more severe systemic flaws.

One of the bases of capitalism is the notion that folks will trade for goods that they have a shortage of for goods that they have a surplus of. Once this exchange is made, each party is better off, or wealth is created. In other words, the basis of capitalism is exchange.

Another basis of capitalism is competition. If I’m trying to make money for my shareholders, I’d want the consumer’s dollar. If I want the consumer’s dollar, I’d better find a way to produce the good cheaper. I find new technology, which creates greater efficiency, which creates greater outputs with the same inputs, or wealth. In other words, another basis of capitalism is exchange. This also creates cheaper goods, giving the consumer greater outputs of goods with the same amount of inputs of money. That is, wealth is increaced.

I don’t know of any serious economist that believes that a single capitalist could singlehandedly create wealth. That’s the whole point! Exchange and competition imply multiple capitalist entities.

I disagree. If I sit on my bum all day, watching TV, I do not “work together” with the society to create wealth. Yet, the United States would still be creating wealth. So, obviously, it doesn’t take the entire society “working together” to create wealth.

This leads to my critique of your second point. Why should a society distribute wealth equally when not all members of the society work equally? Wouldn’t this, logically, bring down production, as a wage stays the same, no matter the amount of work?

It’s pointless to keep asking this question, because obviously there never has been a communist society and socialist theorists would not claim there has. It is a form of social organisation predicated on the total triumph of capitalism. If Marx were writing today he’d be a thrilled supporter of globalisation on this score.

Classical Marxism holds that communism can only come about once capitalism has fully developed the means of production. It was to be a product of affluence and development, “socialism in one country” was the bastard offspring of Lenin, justifying his evil putsch.

IMO communism is totally utopian, because, as the Frankfurt School realised, capitalism has the ability to continiously create new needs and new ways of meeting them and thus it’s project is never finished, constantly renewing itself and reducing human beings to the state of never-sated consumers incapable of even imagining anything could be different.

The question for those who care about this sort of thing is, can you envisage another form of socio-economic organisation evolving that can address what some perceive as the injustices and inequities of the current system without lurching into tyranny?

Not in the way Marx envisaged I’m sure but to believe that capitalism is the only possible system when education and the miracle-working technologies capitalism generates makes all sorts of things possible, is just a belief too.

I have no answers unfortunately (I used to of course, when I was young and idealistic!), just an appreciation of utopian possibilities and a belief that these need exploring without having to accept the free market as it exists is the perfect form of economic organisation.