# Communist Party "comrades" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 25, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324 "2013-05-25T16:19:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Goosie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@Goosie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goosie)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/1 "2013-05-25T16:19:52Z")
Do Communist Party members still address each other as “comrade”, or is that considered a bit old-fashioned nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/2 "2013-05-25T17:03:09Z")
I think the whole “comrade” thing was always simply a bit of bad translation (from the Russian “tovarich”, which really just means something like “friend”) which was promulgated in the west as a minor bit of anti-Soviet propaganda, to make communists seem weird and alien. Representing Communists as always calling each other “comrade” was a form of caricature or stereotyping rather than an accurate depiction of the reality. Yes “tovarich” was probably used by Soviet Communists in addressing one another, and a way of representing the egalitarian, anti-hierarchical principles of Communism (far from Soviet reality, of course, but a crucial ideal nonetheless). However, in Russian I very much doubt that it would have seemed so weird and formal as the largely obsolete “comrade” does in English. It is similar to the way Russian spacemen always get called _cosmonauts_ while American ones are _astronauts_. The over-literal translation is kept up, by Western media, because it is distancing, alienating. I am not saying that Western Communist Party members never addressed one another as “comrade”. No doubt they did, but that is because they themselves were not immune to some of the more subtle methods and effects of the anti-Soviet propaganda machine. Whether they still do now is another matter again. How many actual Communist party members are left these days in English speaking countries? Few if any, I think. There are still some Marxists, but few of those will be actual party members. Many are academics, and I doubt that academic Marxists were ever very much into addressing each other as “comrade” (except, perhaps, ironically). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/3 "2013-05-25T17:10:27Z")
To find out, you’d have to find two Communists. That’s like trying to find two issues of Action Comics #1 in a bargain bin at a comics shop. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/4 "2013-05-25T17:28:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > To find out, you’d have to find two Communists. That’s like trying to find two issues of Action Comics #1 in a bargain bin at a comics shop. There’s plenty of Communist Party members in China, North Korea and Cuba as well as some sizable parties in other countries. Now, you can argue about whether these big C Communists are really ideologically communist or not, but the whole “comrade” thing has more to do with them than it does with Marx. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/5 "2013-05-25T17:33:38Z")
Wasn’t that primarily a European thing? I had a Bulgarian co-worker who said they used the actual word “comrade” in Bulgaria. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/6 "2013-05-25T17:36:40Z")
Njtt, don’t drop your opinion in GQ without substantiation. The word tovarich (and variants) absolutely translates as comrade, friend, and ally. Although it does not necessarily have military overtones, the word strongly implies a combative union against hostility. It likely descends from a term for a specefic military band of soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/7 "2013-05-25T18:13:05Z")
In Russian, “droog” (друг) means “friend”. Same flavor as “friend” in English. Individual, personal friend. “Tovarisch” (товарищ) is more distant, less personal, and more of a “group” flavor of the “friend” concept. Which is close to “comrade” in English. Bolsheviks rejected the old, non-egalitarian forms of address in pre-Revolutionary Russia: сударь, сударыня, господин, барышня, and needed a new form of address - so they picked “tovarisch”. One more advantage to using that word is that it is gender-neutral, which is a fairly rare thing in Russian, and appealed to the gender-equality ideologues (it was always an ideology and not practice in Soviet Russia). Modern forms of address in Russia are all over the place. “Tovarisch” is tainted by the association with the sordid communist past. Gospodin, baryshnya etc. are a bit old-fashioned. So all kinds of “new” ones came to use: Гражданин - “citizen” - was used before, as a very formal form of address, is much less formal now “мужик” - “man” “парень” - “guy” “пацан” - “dude” “чувак” - kinda like “homie” in English I guess “братан” - “bro” “женщина” - woman “девушка” - girl “телка” - young cow. Yes often it is not meant in the most respectful way. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/8 "2013-05-25T18:31:19Z")
The Chinese equivalent of “comrade” ([tongzhi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongzhi)) is now slang for a gay person (to the confusion of some older people). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/9 "2013-05-25T18:39:03Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I think the whole “comrade” thing was always simply a bit of bad translation (from the Russian “tovarich”, which really just means something like “friend”) which was promulgated in the west as a minor bit of anti-Soviet propaganda, to make communists seem weird and alien. This is quite wrong, historically. The use of a term equivalent to “comrade” doesn’t originate in Russia, but in Germany." “Comrade” was used in leftist circles in the US more than 30 years before the foundation of the Soviet Union. From [Wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comrade) > [@](#): > > When the socialist movement gained momentum in the mid-19th century, socialists began to look for an egalitarian alternative to terms like “Mister”, “Miss”, or “Missus”. They chose “comrade” as their preferred term of address. In German, this practice was started in 1875, with the establishment of the Socialist Workers’ Party of Germany.[2][3] In English, the first known use of the word with this meaning was in 1884 in the socialist magazine Justice. The word comrade means companion or friend. > [@](#): > > Genosse (Genossin for females), means “mate”, “fellow” or “companion”, and is the main German word for “comrade” in the political sense (outside of politics, it occurs in words like Hausgenosse, “housemate”). It was first introduced as a political form of address in 1875 by the German Social Democrats, when they established the then-Marxist Socialist Workers’ Party of Germany (the predecessor of today’s Social Democratic Party of Germany).[2][3] They intended Genosse as a translation of Latin socius (“sharing”, “partner”, “comrade”, “associate”, “ally”), as reflected in the words “social” and “socialism”. It would seem that “tovarisch” was intended as a translation of “Genosse” rather “Kamerad.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/10 "2013-05-25T19:20:38Z")
It’s still used in France, in speeches where the orator adress a crowd of fellow members. Not only in the communist party, but also the mainstream socialist party, or unions. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/11 "2013-05-26T00:39:49Z")
The Chinese state media will still refer to communist party members as “Comrade” in the context of communist party events. So the President of China would be called Comrade Xi Jin Ping if he is presiding over a party function, but not if he is, say, meeting a foreign dignitary in his role as head of state (a non party role). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/12 "2013-05-26T02:54:47Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am not saying that Western Communist Party members never addressed one another as “comrade”. No doubt they did, but that is because they themselves were not immune to some of the more subtle methods and effects of the anti-Soviet propaganda machine. I think there is no doubt that American Communists did address one another as comrade. What I do doubt was that there was an “anti-Soviet propaganda machine.” Certainly Communists were demonized by many and officially persecuted in several eras. That’s not exactly the same thing, any more than there was an anti-atheist propaganda machine. From my reading of American history, American Communists addressed one another as comrade because that was the proper designation. Many terms - queer most notably - were reclaimed by persecuted groups as a name of honor, but it’s linguistically inconceivable that comrade developed that way. I don’t know of a particle of evidence to support that. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/13 "2013-05-26T03:12:50Z")
None of the communists I have known did; then on the other hand they were mainly trotskyists or situationists. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/14 "2013-05-26T03:18:57Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > None of the communists I have known did; then on the other hand they were mainly trotskyists or situationists. I have had the opposite experience with the aging Trotskyists I have known ( most of them radicalized in the 1960’s and 1970’s during the Vietnam era ). But I typically haven’t heard it used it in terms of personal address so much. More often as a casual group descriptor of members - “we need to round up a few comrades to distribute leaflets at that union meeting next week.” That sort of thing. But American Marxists are so insanely _Life of Brianish_ in their factionalism I wouldn’t be surprised if there are different subcultures that have abandoned the word for one reason or another. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/15 "2013-05-26T03:56:04Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The word tovarich […] likely descends from a term for a specefic military band of soldiers. Actually, no. _Tovarishch_ товарищ derives from an Old Turkic term, _tavar ishchi_, meaning trader or merchant. In Turkic languages, _tavar_ means ‘wares, trade goods, merchandise, commodities’, originally ‘livestock’. See Clauson, _An Etymological Dictionary of Pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish_ (Oxford, 1972), p. 442. \*Ish \*means ‘work, business’, so \*ishchi \*(Modern Turkish _işçi_) means ‘worker, businessman’. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/16 "2013-05-26T03:59:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > One more advantage to using that word is that it is gender-neutral … Really? I was under the impression that it used the masculine declension in morphology and from adjectives. Is it considered gender-neutral because there is no «товарищевна» type form? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/17 "2013-05-26T04:14:50Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But American Marxists are so insanely _Life of Brianish_ in their factionalism I wouldn’t be surprised if there are different subcultures that have abandoned the word for one reason or another. I didn’t know that about your people; but when I was interested in that sort of thing ( more from an adversarial point of view than sympathetic, since I detest idealistic theorisings ); there were charts showing trotskyist splits in the British factions that went down a dozen generations. The depressing part was that each splitter group then called itself by only a tiny variation from it’s parent. E.G: the Workers Revolutionary Marxist Nutter Party would split off from the International Revolutionary Workers Marxist Retard Party. At the end of the line the party might just be one man and his girlfriend ( her to make the tea ). My own belief is that this was involved in the decline of religion, since these new religionists were following the same pattern as the presbyterian churches in Scotland over the 17th to early 19th centuries, when wild sectaries would quarrel violently then go off to found their own version of calvinist idiocy, which was, all things they considered, the Only True Church. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/18 "2013-05-26T04:48:10Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Really? I was under the impression that it used the masculine declension in morphology and from adjectives. Is it considered gender-neutral because there is no «товарищевна» type form? It is gender-neutral in the sense that you address men or women as “товарищ” - there is no male and female versions of the word. Grammatically it is male. All other forms of address have male and female forms. Except maybe the pre-revolutionary status terms - like “ваше благородие” - which are grammatically neutral gender, so you would not need male and female forms. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/19 "2013-05-26T04:49:56Z")
Unless I am misremembering, “comrade” was used by non-Communists too in 1940s America, anyway. It’s not that people used it as a substitute for a name, but it was used in simple, pleasant way of speaking of a group of friends: “These are my comrades.” It is entirely possible that I listened to the radio too much and did not understand. But saying someone was your _comrade_ had a pleasant connotation when I was very young. I admit that it does seem strange. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324/20 "2013-05-26T04:50:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I didn’t know that about your people; but when I was interested in that sort of thing ( more from an adversarial point of view than sympathetic, since I detest idealistic theorisings ); there were charts showing trotskyist splits in the British factions that went down a dozen generations. The depressing part was that each splitter group then called itself by only a tiny variation from it’s parent. E.G: the Workers Revolutionary Marxist Nutter Party would split off from the International Revolutionary Workers Marxist Retard Party. At the end of the line the party might just be one man and his girlfriend ( her to make the tea ). I was a Red Diaper Baby born in 1968 - some of the folks I know/knew were blood relations ;). But yes, that’s pretty much it in a nutshell. Intensely clannish organizations where everyone were best of buds until a serious ideological split - then they became the bitterest of enemies. It was like an endless cascade of particularly bad divorces. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-party-comrades/659324.md?page=2)