# Communist Piscataway: Where Eminent Domain Meets Corruption. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530 "2006-07-07T18:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/1 "2006-07-07T18:23:07Z")
It takes alot for me to consider actually joining a protest, but the following sickens me into action: > [@](#): > > On Monday July 10 at 3:00 the government of Piscataway, New Jersey will evict a family from their farm using eminent domain. While the U.S. Constitution should have protected their home now it is up to YOU. Some people plan to form “Human Constitution” around their home when the police arrive to take it. > > The Halper family has farmed their land for over 80 years. Now the government of Piscataway, New Jersey will take their 75 acres using eminent domain. The government claims it wants to take the farm to preserve “open spaces.” It’s a farm. It is already an open space. Don’t be surprised if shopping malls and condos are built on the Halper land in a few years. There is nothing to prevent the government from changing their use of the land after they grab it. > > Furthermore, the family has turned down offers to develop it and even tried to sell the development rights to the State of New Jersey so they can be left alone. A representative of a Democratic campaign committee demanded a “contribution” in exchange for giving the Halpers a good price for the development rights. This request for a bribe was caught on tape by the FBI and lead to the resignation of Governor McGreevy. > > With the “open space” argument shown to be absurd, the government next accused the farm of being a “toxic waste dump” althought they have failed to provide any proof of this. The only chemicals found were pesticides against mosquitos that the city itself was caught spraying on the farm in the middle of the winter. > > The government of Piscataway has taken over the property of many other people in the area using all sorts of rationale (senior housing, open spaces, etc.) most of it has been sold to developers for high-density housing. Many people believe the Halper farm will also be sold by the city to well-connected developers. > > The government of Piscataway, New Jersey has been harassing the Halper family for years by sending over police officers on bogus code infractions, driving by and shining bright lights in their windows and even arresting Larry Halper on superficial charges. When Freestar went to a public fair to interview Mayor Brian Wahler (and offer an award from Vladimir Lenin) we were surrounded by police and chased away. A government like this should not exist in America. There is a protest this weekend if you’re interested. Info: [http://www.freestarmedia.com/halper.html](http://www.freestarmedia.com/halper.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/2 "2006-07-07T18:35:47Z")
This makes my blood boil like just about nothing else on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/3 "2006-07-07T19:19:06Z")
I wish I lived close enough to join in the protest. ---
**Author:** ![ParadoxMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@ParadoxMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParadoxMan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/4 "2006-07-07T19:40:51Z")
This whole eminent domain issue pisses me off more than almost anything. I’d be happy to cast my vote for either a dem or rep if they’d make this their main campaign issue. Make a law, no, a constitutional admendment to eliminate the abhorrent abuse of power. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/5 "2006-07-07T19:54:37Z")
How is this Communist? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/6 "2006-07-07T19:56:03Z")
To answer my own question, it’s Communist just like the corrupt latifundia-connected Latin American regimes were Communist, i.e. puzzlingly far-right. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/7 "2006-07-07T20:01:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > How is this Communist? It’s statist collectivism. What’s so hard to understand? I’ll never understand how “communists are on the left and fascists are on the right” got to be one of those universally accepted “truths”. They both came from the same Marxist roots, and only differ in methodology. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/8 "2006-07-07T20:09:57Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > It’s statist collectivism. What’s so hard to understand? > > I’ll never understand how “communists are on the left and fascists are on the right” got to be one of those universally accepted “truths”. They both came from the same Marxist roots, and only differ in methodology. I once heard someone say that the idea that politics is a straight line, with the “left” on one end of the line and the “right” on the other is a fallacy. The truth is, it’s more like a circle…left and right meet in the place where the state controls everything. And, you are right…this is definitely communistic. The state takes your land to put it to a “better use” as decreed by the state. What is that if not communism? That is the very definition of communism. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/9 "2006-07-07T20:10:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > To answer my own question, it’s Communist just like the corrupt latifundia-connected Latin American regimes were Communist, i.e. puzzlingly far-right. What in the world is you rationale for this bizarre statement? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/10 "2006-07-07T20:10:57Z")
> [@ParadoxMan](#): > > This whole eminent domain issue pisses me off more than almost anything. Me too. My GF’s aunt was put out of her home of some 50 years by this stupid law. She was something like 95 at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/11 "2006-07-07T20:11:55Z")
It’s tricky, since eminent domain is a useful (in fact, necessary) function. I’d like to see a law that sale by government to private developers is forbidden for at least 25 years. This should still allow the necessary construction of roads and whatnot, but limit the personal enrichment that makes this particularly vile type of corruption tempting. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/12 "2006-07-07T20:16:10Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > It’s tricky, since eminent domain is a useful (in fact, necessary) function. I’d like to see a law that sale by government to private developers is forbidden for at least 25 years. This should still allow the necessary construction of roads and whatnot, but limit the personal enrichment that makes this particularly vile type of corruption tempting. Why 25 years. Why shldn’t they be obligated to put it to it’s stated “public use” immediately or, you know, keep there greedy little paws off of it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/13 "2006-07-07T20:16:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What in the world is you rationale for this bizarre statement? I think it’s because in practice, totalitarian regimes are functionally identical, regardless of whatever ideological lip-service they pay. Whether your land is confiscated because you’re a Jew or a despot landlord doesn’t matter; it’s just the flimsy excuse the state uses to increase its own power and wealth. In this case, the Piscataway government is simply too lazy to dream up a noble-sounding excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/14 "2006-07-07T20:26:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why 25 years. Why shldn’t they be obligated to put it to it’s stated “public use” immediately or, you know, keep there greedy little paws off of it? Sale to “private developers” is not public use. Private developers sometimes see a lot of money in primo real-estate, and will tempt the local G-Man with large payoffs if only they’ll seize that land under the guise of “eminent domain” then sell it to said shady developer. (Or at least, that the fear.) The “25 years” plan prevents government lackeys from unethically grabbing up land for sizeable payouts from developer, who in turn build malls or condos, but still allows them to grab it & build a freeway or declare it “protected wetlands” or some such. So, no sale = no greedy private developer building a new mall, but new freeways when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/15 "2006-07-07T20:27:39Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > To answer my own question, it’s Communist just like the corrupt latifundia-connected Latin American regimes were Communist, i.e. puzzlingly far-right. Wasn’t this precedent set by Kelo vs City of New London? The Supreme Court case decided by that far-right majority of Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer? Or is this some other far-right eminent domain issue? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/16 "2006-07-07T20:28:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why 25 years. Why shldn’t they be obligated to put it to it’s stated “public use” immediately or, you know, keep there greedy little paws off of it? Unfortunately, “immediate” can get kind of slippery. If the government claims the area has toxic waste on it, they’ll claim it requires a cleanup before road building (or whatever) can proceed. Since the budget has other priorities, though, we’ll make a few trivial token efforts like sending out two guys with shovels. Then a few years passes and “We did more tests and it’s okay, but further study shows the road isn’t necessary. Well, we see the original owners have all died or moved away in the meantime, and StripMall inc. is offering of a good deal…” A lengthy moratorium will hopefully allow a turnover or two of government, distancing the people who make the deal from those who benefit from it. Or you could devise a list of acceptable uses and require government officials to swear oaths that the land will be put to those uses, under penalties of heavy fines and impeachment/dismissal. Even that may be unworkable, so civil disobedience might be the only way. A Branch Davidian-style standoff could get nationwide attention. Of course, you mnight ahve to kill some people along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/17 "2006-07-07T20:35:02Z")
> [@Earthworm Jim](#): > > Sale to “private developers” is not public use. Private developers sometimes see a lot of money in primo real-estate, and will tempt the local G-Man with large payoffs if only they’ll seize that land under the guise of “eminent domain” then sell it to said shady developer. (Or at least, that the fear.) The “25 years” plan prevents government lackeys from unethically grabbing up land for sizeable payouts from developer, who in turn build malls or condos, but still allows them to grab it & build a freeway or declare it “protected wetlands” or some such. > So, no sale = no greedy private developer building a new mall, but new freeways when necessary. OK, so why don’t they eminient domain it when (and only when) the freeway is deemed necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/18 "2006-07-07T20:41:43Z")
I would have no problem with the OP being phrased “Fascist Pistataway”. Communism is not about taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Let me phrase that again. _Communism is not about taking from the **poor** and giving to the **rich** _. Now, if the property were seized unfairly and used for a public works project or state-owned enterprise, that would be at least Communistic enough to warrant a Pit thread title. But the entire _point_ of the OP is that the property is most likely being seized not _mainly_ for the ostensible benefit of the people or the government, but to hand it over to private enterprise. I can’t think off the top of my head when the Communists have ever done that, except perhaps in “Communist” China, and _to the extent_ that they do this, they are not Communist but rather a garden-variety Banana Republic or Republican Dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/19 "2006-07-07T20:46:35Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > IBut the entire _point_ of the OP is that the property is most likely being seized not _mainly_ for the ostensible benefit of the people or the government, but to hand it over to private enterprise. I think you’re banking too much on the unsubstantiated, and certainly biased, speculation in the OP and the link. There’s no _evidence_ that the local government is gonna turn around and sell this land to commercial developers. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/20 "2006-07-07T21:17:18Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I think you’re banking too much on the unsubstantiated, and certainly biased, speculation in the OP and the link. There’s no _evidence_ that the local government is gonna turn around and sell this land to commercial developers. What’s “biased” and “unsubstantiated” about my OP? Piscataway has already seized land citing similar reasons and has sold to high-density developers. So much for open spaces. Why would they seize a farm outright for the preservation of open spaces when the owners had no intention of developing it? Why would they switch their reasons after the initial one was deemed too absurd? And **Ludovic** : for christ’s sake get a grip. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530.md?page=2)