# Communist Piscataway: Where Eminent Domain Meets Corruption. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530 "2006-07-07T18:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/21 "2006-07-07T21:21:14Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > What’s “biased” and “unsubstantiated” about my OP? Piscataway has already seized land citing similar reasons and has sold to high-density developers. So much for open spaces. Why would they seize a farm outright for the preservation of open spaces when the owners had no intention of developing it? Why would they switch their reasons after the initial one was deemed too absurd? > > And **Ludovic** : for christ’s sake get a grip. Well he’s saying thats not Communist. It’s shitty. But not communist. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/22 "2006-07-07T21:39:28Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Communism is not about taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Of course it is. Why else would the masses live so poorly and the Party members live so well? > [@](#): > > I can’t think off the top of my head when the Communists have ever done that, except perhaps in “Communist” China Which is a Communist country in both creed and action. > [@](#): > > , and _to the extent_ that they do this, they are not Communist but rather a garden-variety Banana Republic or Republican Dictatorship. In other words, a Communist country. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/23 "2006-07-07T21:48:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I would have no problem with the OP being phrased “Fascist Pistataway”. > > Communism is not about taking from the poor and giving to the rich. > > Let me phrase that again. _Communism is not about taking from the **poor** and giving to the **rich** _. You may be able to back that up theoretically, but not in reality. Name a communist country where the poor have actually been lifted up out of poverty. Generally, the wealth is just transferred from one set of upper-class people, who then become part of the poor, to a newly-created upper class, who then become rich. > [@](#): > > Now, if the property were seized unfairly and used for a public works project or state-owned enterprise, that would be at least Communistic enough to warrant a Pit thread title. The justification they usually give is that the development of the land will benefit the public as a whole, through tax revenue, or tourist dollars, or whatever. > [@](#): > > But the entire _point_ of the OP is that the property is most likely being seized not _mainly_ for the ostensible benefit of the people or the government, but to hand it over to private enterprise. I can’t think off the top of my head when the Communists have ever done that, except perhaps in “Communist” China, and _to the extent_ that they do this, they are not Communist but rather a garden-variety Banana Republic or Republican Dictatorship. You can put “communist” in quotes all you want, but China IS a communist country. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/24 "2006-07-07T21:51:00Z")
I cannot understand this anti communist villainy at all, when it is pure capitalism. Asset worth small amount of money is seized from the rightful owner to develop and make lots of money for the businessman, how the fuck is that communist ? Corruption, yes, greed yes, communist not at all. The way to discourage such behaviour is to set a purchase price for the land as if it had been developed, if they still want it after that then at least the original owners have been compensated according to the great and good american way. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/25 "2006-07-07T22:03:50Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Or you could devise a list of acceptable uses and require government officials to swear oaths that the land will be put to those uses, under penalties of heavy fines and impeachment/dismissal. Even that may be unworkable, so civil disobedience might be the only way. A Branch Davidian-style standoff could get nationwide attention. Of course, you mnight have to kill some people along the way. As long as the people killed are the councilcritters that approved this rape, I have no problems with that. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/26 "2006-07-07T22:12:33Z")
Something is screwy here. The government can’t evict anybody without a court order. They also can’t seize private property via eminent domain without paying compensation. Neither of those things are mentioned in the quote in the OP, which reads very much like it may have also ommitted other relevant facts. If there’s a protest, all that will happen is some well meaning but ill informed participants will go to jail. Proceed with caution. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/27 "2006-07-07T22:24:15Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Piscataway has already seized land citing similar reasons and has sold to high-density developers. … Just out of curiosity, do you know where else this has happened? I only ask because I have lived in Piscataway for 4 years now. Some local history: Clara Halper ran for mayor 2 years ago so that she could save her farm. I don’t remember all the arguments on both sides, but I ended up voting for Mayor Wahler. It was a pretty heated campaign for a town this size (about 50,000 in 2000), but both (actually, all 3) sides were slinging the mud, as I recall, and none looked too appealing. Well, I don’t mean to defend this whole thing, but I feel like we aren’t getting the whole story… I can’t find online right now what Mayor Wahler’s responses were to Ms Halper’s accuasations in 2004, but I do remember that I ended up voting for him… In the end, I do generally think eminent domain is abused. Check out Highland Park, NJ! (Computer lab closing, no time to find a link) [Rutgers’ shitty newspaper covers the election (registration required for pages 2,3)](http://www.dailytargum.com/media/storage/paper168/news/2004/09/29/PageOne/ThreeWay.Mayoral.Race.Heats.Up.Campaign-734908.shtml?norewrite200607071806&sourcedomain=www.dailytargum.com) ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/28 "2006-07-07T22:26:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Something is screwy here. The government can’t evict anybody without a court order. They also can’t seize private property via eminent domain without paying compensation. Neither of those things are mentioned in the quote in the OP, which reads very much like it may have also ommitted other relevant facts. If there’s a protest, all that will happen is some well meaning but ill informed participants will go to jail. Proceed with caution. NJ supreme court OKed the eviction. Township offered compensation, but Halpers didn’t like the price. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/29 "2006-07-07T22:36:09Z")
> [@Jamaika a jamaikaiaké](#): > > NJ supreme court OKed the eviction. Township offered compensation, but Halpers didn’t like the price. Ahhh. In other words, they want kind strangers to risk jail because they lost the lawsuit, and are too damn stubborn to obey a lawful order. Fuck them. I just hope nobody gets hurt trying to help these people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/30 "2006-07-07T22:58:15Z")
Does a citizen have to pay taxes on the enforced “sale” of his property through eminent domain? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/31 "2006-07-07T23:09:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > As long as the people killed are the councilcritters that approved this rape, I have no problems with that. Nah, they’ll end up being a bunch of hapless state cops or ATF agents. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/32 "2006-07-07T23:39:55Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Ahhh. In other words, they want kind strangers to risk jail because they lost the lawsuit, and are too damn stubborn to obey a lawful order. Fuck them. I just hope nobody gets hurt trying to help these people. I think some independant organization has picked up the fight, I’m not sure if they were asked to but the family is supporting them. The Halper’s stated in the paper that they will not be on the property when the court order tells them they have to be gone, which is some time on Monday. The protestors from out of state may still be there. Thats per todays Star Ledger. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t this precedent set by Kelo vs City of New London? The Supreme Court case decided by that far-right majority of Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer? > > Or is this some other far-right eminent domain issue? No it has nothing to do with Kelo. This has been in the works for a long time before that decision. The land was condemned and seized under the open space laws in the state. Under Kelo a town can seize a property and hand it over to another private entity. That’s not the case here. At least not yet. For the record the government of Piscataway is Democrat, for ever and ever world without end amen. It’s a one party town. Even the last “hotly contested” three way mayor race was a landslide. Also for the record the Halper “farm” has nothing growing on it that I can tell and it’s the ugliest piece of property in the town. There is a horse riding school with the worst looking horses I have ever seen. Lots of mounds of dirt and acres of weeds. I have very strong feelings against eminent domain and Kelo in particular. I would generally lean towards the Halper’s side in a case like this. On the other hand I have met the Halper’s, which makes me much less sympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/33 "2006-07-07T23:47:55Z")
> [@Jamaika a jamaikaiaké](#): > > NJ supreme court OKed the eviction. Township offered compensation, but Halpers didn’t like the price. Basically what happened is the town has tried to take the property for years. They orginally offered something like 4 million in 1999. The family refused and it went into the courts (my figures aren’t exact but close enough to give you an idea.) The process through the courts took years and the town finally won. So now it’s like 4 years later and the town says ok here’s your 4 million. The family said GFY the property is now worth a lot more. The town argued in the court that they should only pay the amount from when the process started, not fair market value when the family has to turn it over. That took another couple of years. The court found for the Halper’s and the town has to pay them close to 18 million. Today the Ledger reports that they are still contesting the amount and have only paid the family 4.3 million so far. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/34 "2006-07-07T23:49:11Z")
Oh and it case anyone was wondering, this is one of the reasons why the governor resigned. You thought it was that gay thing? ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/35 "2006-07-08T00:16:32Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Basically what happened is the town has tried to take the property for years. They orginally offered something like 4 million in 1999. The family refused and it went into the courts (my figures aren’t exact but close enough to give you an idea.) The process through the courts took years and the town finally won. So now it’s like 4 years later and the town says ok here’s your 4 million. The family said GFY the property is now worth a lot more. The town argued in the court that they should only pay the amount from when the process started, not fair market value when the family has to turn it over. That took another couple of years. The court found for the Halper’s and the town has to pay them close to 18 million. Today the Ledger reports that they are still contesting the amount and have only paid the family 4.3 million so far. Sorry, I didn’t know about the mismatched numbers. I did know that Governor McGreevy resigned because of scandals, and used his sexuality to garner sympathy, but I thought the main scandal was appointing his lover to be the head of NJ homeland security dept, or somesuch. I am relatively new to NJ, so I hadn’t heard of the Halpers until the mayoral election in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/36 "2006-07-08T00:59:39Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No it has nothing to do with Kelo. This has been in the works for a long time before that decision. The land was condemned and seized under the open space laws in the state. Under Kelo a town can seize a property and hand it over to another private entity. That’s not the case here. At least not yet. > > For the record the government of Piscataway is Democrat, for ever and ever world without end amen. It’s a one party town. Even the last “hotly contested” three way mayor race was a landslide. > > Also for the record the Halper “farm” has nothing growing on it that I can tell and it’s the ugliest piece of property in the town. There is a horse riding school with the worst looking horses I have ever seen. Lots of mounds of dirt and acres of weeds. > > I have very strong feelings against eminent domain and Kelo in particular. I would generally lean towards the Halper’s side in a case like this. On the other hand I have met the Halper’s, which makes me much less sympathetic. Thanks, **Loach**. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/37 "2006-07-08T01:21:51Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You may be able to back that up theoretically, but not in reality. Name a communist country where the poor have actually been lifted up out of poverty. Generally, the wealth is just transferred from one set of upper-class people, who then become part of the poor, to a newly-created upper class, who then become rich. I didn’t say the poor were uplifted, just that the existing capitalist rich tend not to be. > [@](#): > > You can put “communist” in quotes all you want, but China IS a communist country. I didn’t deny that they can be labelled communist. However, my point is that corrupt wealth transfers to ostensibly capitalist ventures is anything but **supporting evidence** that a regime is Communist, and indeed, it is more indicative of just about any other governmental and economic model. In fact, China’s current model is evidence that they are not Communist: I can call myself a cream soda but that doesn’t make me one. When one of your slogans is “to get rich is glorious”, that sort of give lie to the notion that you’re a completely Communist society! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/38 "2006-07-08T02:05:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **Loach** : Also for the record the Halper “farm” has nothing growing on it that I can tell and it’s the ugliest piece of property in the town. There is a horse riding school with the worst looking horses I have ever seen. Lots of mounds of dirt and acres of weeds. Are the Halpers in violation of any laws by having “ugly” property with weeds and mounds of dirt? That is not unusual in rural areas that are not being used for crops. If the horses are not being well cared for, then that’s still another legal matter. But swaybacks and other unattractive horses aren’t against the law either. There has to be _something_ of value there for the property to be worth between four and eighteen million dollars. Must be the location. > [@](#): > > I have very strong feelings against eminent domain and Kelo in particular. I would generally lean towards the Halper’s side in a case like this. On the other hand I have met the Halper’s, which makes me much less sympathetic. I’m wondering what it is about them that makes you feel less sympathetic. Are they unattractive? Lacking in social graces? Uneducated? Pedophiles? Neo-Nazis? _Crimson Tide Transplants_??? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/39 "2006-07-08T02:21:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No it has nothing to do with Kelo. This has been in the works for a long time before that decision. The land was condemned and seized under the open space laws in the state. Under Kelo a town can seize a property and hand it over to another private entity. That’s not the case here. At least not yet. What are the open space laws about? That sounds unconstitutional to me, to take land away from a private owner to keep the space open. If there is not enough open space, then it seems to me more careful zoning would be a more appropriate way to handle the problem. > [@](#): > > For the record the government of Piscataway is Democrat, for ever and ever world without end amen. It’s a one party town. Even the last “hotly contested” three way mayor race was a landslide. That the local government is Democrat doesn’t surprise me in the least. > [@](#): > > Also for the record the Halper “farm” has nothing growing on it that I can tell and it’s the ugliest piece of property in the town. There is a horse riding school with the worst looking horses I have ever seen. Lots of mounds of dirt and acres of weeds. Don’t know how this justifies taking the land away. Are there local ordinances they are violating? If so, there must be some recourse other than eminent domain to deal with the problem. > [@](#): > > I have very strong feelings against eminent domain and Kelo in particular. I would generally lean towards the Halper’s side in a case like this. On the other hand I have met the Halper’s, which makes me much less sympathetic. Whether or not the people involved are sympathetic figures is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530/40 "2006-07-08T02:22:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Basically what happened is the town has tried to take the property for years. They orginally offered something like 4 million in 1999. The family refused and it went into the courts (my figures aren’t exact but close enough to give you an idea.) The process through the courts took years and the town finally won. So now it’s like 4 years later and the town says ok here’s your 4 million. The family said GFY the property is now worth a lot more. The town argued in the court that they should only pay the amount from when the process started, not fair market value when the family has to turn it over. That took another couple of years. The court found for the Halper’s and the town has to pay them close to 18 million. Today the Ledger reports that they are still contesting the amount and have only paid the family 4.3 million so far. So why all the outrage by some “independent” group? The Halpers had full and fair due process, and are about to walk away with millions of dollars. Really not seeing the miscarriage of justice this is alleged to be in the OP. Kinda doubt there’d be many protestors if they weren’t telling selected parts of the story… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-piscataway-where-eminent-domain-meets-corruption/363530.md?page=3)