# Communist=Red...Why and for whom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 7, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610 "2001-05-07T04:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fecal\_nugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fecal\_nugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fecal_nugget)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/1 "2001-05-07T04:28:52Z")
I’ve always wondered how the whole Red/Communist association came to be, I’d always assumed it had something to do with the colors of the (former) USSR and Chinese flags, but could it have gone the other way? --i.e., the flags were that color because of a previous association, but than we are still left with the original question of where it came from. To expand a bit, is this association exclusively western? Exclusively American? or is it shared by the communists themselves? ---
**Author:** ![NightRabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NightRabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NightRabbit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/2 "2001-05-07T05:37:39Z")
It didn’t start with WW2. After the Russian Revolution in 1917, then the new volunteer army was called the “Red Army” which later fell under the leadership of Trotsky. I think I remember somewhere that the workers’ Marxist rebellions in Russia took the blood red color as a symbol of unity and struggle, and that it later came to be associated with communism as a whole. I’d have to check my sources, though. ---
**Author:** ![NightRabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NightRabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NightRabbit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/3 "2001-05-07T05:48:54Z")
Ok I found it. This is from translated from K.A. Ivanov’s “Flagi gosudarstv mira” (Flags of the states of the world), Moskva 1971 … In the February 1917 in Russia the Bourgeois-democratic revolution won. Democratic forces of the land - workers, peasants, petty bourgeois, avant-garde intelligentsia - marched under the red revolutionary flags. The winning wave of the revolution destroyed the monarchy in Russia. Even in the first days of February Lenin’s party of the proletariat - the Russian social-democratic workers party, declared to the people in a manifesto: ‘Citizens! the base of Russian czarism has fallen … The red symbols of uprising can be seen in the whole of Russia! Forward! Don’t stop! Mercilessly fight! Under the Red symbols of Revolution!’ The government was taken over by the Temporary Board and Soviets of workers’ and soldiers’ deputies. The Temporary Board was afraid of revolutionary changes and restricted itself to half-measures. That was also the situation with the state’s flag and arms. The old white-blue-red flag was not changed, but the imperial arms and the crown were removed from it. In the whole state the Soviets were evolving. Similarly the people of Ukraine organized in March-April in Kiev. The Central Committee and decided ‘to adopt the yellow-blue flag of Independent Ukraine’. The upper yellow half symbolized wheat, and lower dove-blue the sky. In Minsk the Byelorussian Bourgeois-national Committee was declared. It used a flag with horizontal stripes: white-red-white. In March the German army took over the whole Pre-Baltic, and afterwards the bourgeois Republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were proclaimed there. All three of them used horizontal tricolors: blue-black-white in Estonia, red-white-red in Latvia and yellow-green-red in Lithuania. … It’s me again. I also remember from my old history classes that the old colors of the flag, White-blue-red, symbolized God, the Czar, and the people, for obvious reasons. They are arranged in the horizontal pattern because the czar is above the people, but not above god. ---
**Author:** ![fecal\_nugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fecal\_nugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fecal_nugget)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/4 "2001-05-07T06:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NightRabbit \* > It’s me again. I also remember from my old history classes that the old colors of the flag, White-blue-red, symbolized God, the Czar, and the people, for obvious reasons. They are arranged in the horizontal pattern because the czar is above the people, but not above god. > \*\* So maybe the red soviet flag had a sort of “power to the people” message? That seems pretty likely considering the marxist manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/5 "2001-05-07T14:40:53Z")
They tore up the Russian flag of white blue and red. The Bolsheviks grabbed the red piece, and the Whites took the white piece. Or so I heard. Red in Russia goes back centuries and centuries. The word for red, _krasny_ is similiar to the word for beautiful, _krasivy_. Thus, to the Russian people, red=beautiful. Also, Red Square, or _Krasiva Ploshchad_ is actually Beautiful Square. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/6 "2001-05-07T15:10:20Z")
Red has been associated with socialism since the 1840s, just like black was associated with anarchism. I think the Paris Commune used it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/7 "2001-05-07T15:29:46Z")
You also might want to check out Les Miserables. I found a public domain online version of the novel here: gopher://wiretap.area.com/00/Library/Classic/lesmis.vh which includes scenes like this one, at the funeral of General Lemarque, which, if you’ve read the book, is the incident that sparks the rioting in Paris: > [@](#): > > All at once, a man on horseback, clad in black, made his appearance in the middle of the group with a red flag, others say, with a pike surmounted with a red liberty-cap. Lafayette turned aside his head. Exelmans quitted the procession. Later, when the National Guard overrun a barricade, they find: > [@](#): > > a red flag, a package of cartridges, and three hundred pistol-balls. The National Guardsmen tore up the flag, and carried off its tattered remains on the points of their bayonets. and later in the book: > [@](#): > > In front of the Cour-Batave, a detachment of National Guards found a red flag bearing the following inscription: Republican revolution, No. 127. Was this a revolution, in fact? Hugo wrote the book in 1862. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/8 "2001-05-07T22:39:56Z")
_Return of the Straight Dope_ by Cecil Adams, page 320. I can’t find the column online, but I vaguely remember reading it. I hate to admit that I don’t own a copy of the book, but the index of it is available [here](http://www.straightdope.com/otheroutlets/rotsdindex.html) ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/9 "2001-05-07T22:54:48Z")
The column is online, after all. [Why are Communists so fond of the color red?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_320b.html) Apparently red is the color of revolution, and white is the color of law and order. ---
**Author:** ![Qwertyasdfg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Qwertyasdfg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertyasdfg)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/10 "2001-05-08T01:26:13Z")
I asked my psychology teacher (who also teaches history) about this very question a while ago. He told me that the color red is, to the psyche, a color of action and passion. Thus, most flags include some amount of red in them. Also, consequntly, it is the color of revolution for the aforementioned reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Timchik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@Timchik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timchik)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/11 "2001-05-08T11:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NightRabbit \* > \*\*Ok I found it. > > This is from translated from K.A. Ivanov’s “Flagi gosudarstv mira” (Flags of the states of the world), Moskva 1971 > > …The government was taken over by the Temporary Board and Soviets of workers’ and soldiers’ deputies. The Temporary Board was afraid of revolutionary changes and restricted itself to half-measures… > > …In March the German army took over the whole Pre-Baltic, … > \*\* [nitpick1] **NightRabbit** , I think _Vremennoe Pravitelstvo_ is usually translated as Provisional Government, not Temporary Board. Or was that the _Vremenny Sovet_ (Provisional Soviet) they were referring to? _Pribaltika_ is not “Pre-Baltic”, but a collective noun that means “the Baltics”.[/nitpick1] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Also, Red Square, or _Krasiva Ploshchad_ is actually Beautiful Square. > \*\* [nitpick2] **Guinastasia** , Red Square in Russian is _Krasnaya Ploshchad’_. You were right that the original meaning of the name was Beautiful Square, as Krasnaya had the dual meaning of ‘beautiful’ and ‘red’ when the square was named. However, the ‘beautiful’ aspect of _krasnaya_ is pretty much lost now, and Red Square is red, even in Russian. [/nitpick2] and oh dear, I even have a minor nitpick with [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_320b.html) (gulp): “kracivaya” should be “krasivaya”. Zotti’s to blame, I’m sure. Cecil wouldn’t make a transliteration mistake, would he? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/12 "2001-05-08T11:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently red is the color of revolution, and white is the color of law and order. So, judging from our flag, Canada is land of revolutionary law and order? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/13 "2001-05-08T11:38:16Z")
Soy’ooz neroosh’imi resp’ooblik svob’odnikh Splot’ila nav’eki vel’ikaia Rus Da zdr’avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar’odov Yed’ini mog’oochi Sov’etski Soy’ooz… Sorry… I was caught up in the moment. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/14 "2001-05-08T14:38:37Z")
True, but in Russia, red and beautiful are so intertwined… ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/15 "2001-05-08T14:57:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Soy’ooz neroosh’imi resp’ooblik svob’odnikh > Splot’ila nav’eki vel’ikaia Rus > Da zdr’avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar’odov > Yed’ini mog’oochi Sov’etski Soy’ooz… > > Sorry… I was caught up in the moment. 😉 > > \*\* Luchshe pet’ etu pesniu: Vstavai, prokliat’em zakleimenni Ves’ mir golodnyx i rabov! Kipit nash razum vozmuschenni I v smertny boi vesti gotov… ---
**Author:** ![Timchik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@Timchik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timchik)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/16 "2001-05-09T06:47:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Soy’ooz neroosh’imi resp’ooblik svob’odnikh > Splot’ila nav’eki vel’ikaia Rus > Da zdr’avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar’odov > Yed’ini mog’oochi Sov’etski Soy’ooz… > > Sorry… I was caught up in the moment. 😉 > > \*\* Well, if you want to be up to the moment it’s now: Rossiya - syvashchennaya nasha derzhava! Rossiya - lyubimaya nasha strana! Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava - Tvoyo dostoyan’e na vse vremena. Slav’sya, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoe - Bratskikh narodov soyuz vekovoi, Predkami dannaya mudrost’ narodnaya, Slav’sya strana! My gordimsya toboi! etc. etc., written by the same _prodazhny_ hack (Sergei Mikhailkov) who wrote the original praising Stalin, engaged in a bit of revisionism under Khrushchyov to excise the bastard, and has now glorified Putin’s _krasno-korichnevy_ neo-Bolshie attitudes. A much better version has been written by Vladimir Voinovich, also to the same music; it’s absolutely hilarious (available in Russian [here](http://tigr.al.ru/forum/discuss.phtml?id=4060&part=23768&disc=26431&start=0)). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/communist-red-why-and-for-whom/64610/17 "2001-05-09T12:14:28Z")
> [@](#): > > available in Russian here Ya ne gavaryu pa-Russki!