# Community Has Drug Problem: Here Is Their Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194 "2005-05-03T05:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/61 "2005-05-05T11:45:07Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Uh-uh. First off, it’s a well-known maxim in science, that nothing can truly be proven, you can only find that a preponderance of evidence makes it highly likely that a given proposition/theory is true. I call BS on that. You are misusing the maxim, to dodge the fact that you source doesn’t cut it. > [@](#): > > Also, the study I cited is pretty compelling, IMHO. I provided a cite (the only one my limited search-engine skills could turn up, **(edited by Bosda)** No-no-no, it isn’t compelling, my little arthropod. Except “in your _opinion_”. stress “opinion”. And there aren’t more studies, because the idea don’t stand up. After all, if prayer/meditation/magik worked, we’d be noticing skewed results in insurance actuary tables, now wouldn’t we my little 3/8 inch bolt retainer? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/62 "2005-05-05T16:15:25Z")
OK, let’s get one thing straight. I am neither an arthropod nor a bit of hardware and I am most decidedly not from Slobovia. OK, that’s more than one thing. I am a tropical fruit with a flame-retardant peel. Also, if the idea don’t hold water, surely, there are studies out there that would find just that. Aren’t there? Hmmm? Also, I didn’t claim that meditation was proven to work, I claimed that I had read some articles that cited studies that found that groups of meditators had a mellowing effect on the community at large, and managed to dig one up (actually, the one at the top of my cerebral cortex concerned a group of meditators on a university camus, but I couldn’t find that one. It does exist, though, really.) Proof positive, no. Suggests that the matter bears further investigation, yes. That hey, maybe this is worth a try? Heck yeah. And if a significantly reduced rate of people blowing themselves and each other up over which of the Big Three Middle Eastern Religions gets to own the real estate isn’t compelling, I don’t know what is. So, are you going to help me with the search-engine thing or not? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/63 "2005-05-05T17:30:07Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > OK, let’s get one thing straight. I am neither an arthropod nor a bit of hardware and I am most decidedly not from Slobovia. OK, that’s more than one thing. I am a tropical fruit with a flame-retardant peel. > > Also, if the idea don’t hold water, surely, there are studies out there that would find just that. Aren’t there? Hmmm? > > Also, I didn’t claim that meditation was proven to work, I claimed that I had read some articles that cited studies that found that groups of meditators had a mellowing effect on the community at large, and managed to dig one up (actually, the one at the top of my cerebral cortex concerned a group of meditators on a university camus, but I couldn’t find that one. It does exist, though, really.) > > Proof positive, no. Suggests that the matter bears further investigation, yes. That hey, maybe this is worth a try? Heck yeah. > > And if a significantly reduced rate of people blowing themselves and each other up over which of the Big Three Middle Eastern Religions gets to own the real estate isn’t compelling, I don’t know what is. > > So, are you going to help me with the search-engine thing or not? Your fudging your statments, my little hot air engine regulatory commission member! And no. I really really don’t think this is worth it. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/64 "2005-05-05T18:52:06Z")
Seeing as I’m not making a lot of headway in convincing anyone here to keep their minds open, I will leave it at one parting thought: Why should we adhere to the idea that everything is “false until proven true”? Why not: “ **we don’t know, and until we have some proof one way of another, we have no scientifically based opinion**.” Doesn’t that make more sense? ---
**Author:** ![Fringe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5a626/32.png) [@Fringe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fringe)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/65 "2005-05-05T19:31:14Z")
> [@Cagey Drifter](#): > > Seeing as I’m not making a lot of headway in convincing anyone here to keep their minds open, I will leave it at one parting thought: > > Why should we adhere to the idea that everything is “false until proven true”? Why not: “ **we don’t know, and until we have some proof one way of another, we have no scientifically based opinion**.” > > Doesn’t that make more sense? Not really. I still find it to be unreasonable to think of prayer as something that can be rigorously and adequately tested that will produce any verifiable evidence. Because of that, I cannot very well make the statement you have suggested. How can there be proof for or against it, if it stands outside the realm of measurable evidence? I _could_ say that I have no scientifically based opinion, but that would suggest that there could ever be scientific proof for or against prayer. That would be lending false connotations, something that should be avoided in any case. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/66 "2005-05-05T20:29:35Z")
> [@Cagey Drifter](#): > > Why should we adhere to the idea that everything is “false until proven true”? Why not: “ **we don’t know, and until we have some proof one way of another, we have no scientifically based opinion**.” > > Doesn’t that make more sense? Not really. The number of things that **might** be true is infinite. Maybe voodoo rituals really would make that town’s drug problem better! Maybe satanic rituals would! Maybe adjusting the the aura of everyone is town would do the trick. Our time and our resources are finite. We can’t try every possible random solution to every problem. So we should concentrate our efforts on doing things we know will probably work. Lots of people pray every day. If prayer really worked as people claim it would be easy to prove on an actuarial basis. Atheists would have a higher rate of automobile accidents, for example. Or maybe there would be a clear difference in infant mortality rates between different Christian denominations. The fact that no one has come forward with such obvious actuarial data strongly suggests that prayer doesn’t work. Or if it does, it does in such rare cases as to be discounted as a useful tool for public policy. I’m not sure why this particular position qualifies as being “close minded” … . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/67 "2005-05-05T21:48:37Z")
> [@Fringe](#): > > Not really. I still find it to be unreasonable to think of prayer as something that can be rigorously and adequately tested that will produce any verifiable evidence. Because of that, I cannot very well make the statement you have suggested. So why does unknowable = false? That appears to be the statement you are making. If I say there’s alien life on a small earth-size planet 432 billion miles from here, is that automatically “false” because you aren’t able to verify it? No, obviously not. It’s unknowable to us at this moment in time, and therefore we can’t make any claims about the veracity of the statement. How is this prayer issue different? Taking it further, it’s possible that we may never be able to verify whether there is life on that distant planet I speak of. Then again we might. It’s kinda hard to say at this stage, isn’t it? But irrespective of whether we’ll ever know, you cannot say my claim is false, since you really have no idea. Just like that, right now we might not be able to tell whether prayer works. But it’s certainly possible that at some future date we will be able to. Just because no one on the Straight Dope message board in the year 2005 can think of a way to do it doesn’t mean it’s not possible. Just think historically about all the things that people thought were impossible (often it took major shifts in perspective for the pieces to come together). I don’t see why it’s such a stretch here either. > [@Pochacco](#): > > Our time and our resources are finite. We can’t try every possible random solution to every problem. So we should concentrate our efforts on doing things we know will probably work. This may be true, but don’t confuse the practical with the abstract. I realize that this may be a subtle point I’m making, but not having the time and resources to check every possible avenue of action is not the same thing as saying that one of those particular ideas won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/68 "2005-05-05T22:27:28Z")
> [@Cagey Drifter](#): > > Just think historically about all the things that people thought were impossible (often it took major shifts in perspective for the pieces to come together). I don’t see why it’s such a stretch here either. Because most of the things you can imagine that seem impossible … ACTUALLY ARE. It’s impossible to fly to the moon on the back of a swan. It’s impossible to swim in molten lava. It’s impossible to hold your breath for 24 hours. The fact that the universe occasionally surprises us with amazing and unknown properties doesn’t mean that we should go around entertaining the possibility that any damn-fool thing that pops in our heads might be true. If someone proposes something that runs counter to both common sense and scientific knowledge the only reasonable position to take is: “Yeah, right. PROVE IT.” And until that proof is forthcoming, its perfectly reasonable to assume that the proposition is false. > [@](#): > > This may be true, but don’t confuse the practical with the abstract. I realize that this may be a subtle point I’m making, but not having the time and resources to check every possible avenue of action is not the same thing as saying that one of those particular ideas won’t work. But, as I’ve already pointed out, there’s plenty evidence that prayer doesn’t work. Insurance companies charge smokers higher rates. Why don’t they charge atheists higher rates? The only reason that the case against prayer isn’t conclusive is that what constitutes “working” is ill-defined, making it impossible to construct a decent experiment. The supernaturalists have learned since the Enlightenment not to put forward their claims as empirically testable propositions lest some atheistic crank actually take them up on it … . ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/69 "2005-05-05T23:36:59Z")
> [@Cagey Drifter](#): > > So why does unknowable = false? That appears to be the statement you are making. No. Unknowable = Useless. If you can’t know & quantify something, then you can’t **do anything with it!** Nothing of importance, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/70 "2005-05-06T00:28:07Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > No. > Unknowable = Useless. > > If you can’t know & quantify something, then you can’t **do anything with it!** > > Nothing of importance, anyway. I’m not religious or anything, but that seems like a sad way to go through life. I like to think there are lots of things out there that defy explanation. IMO, it’s naive to think that in this universe and whatever other universes are out there that humans on this planet could possibly be able to prove everything that they believe to be true. As for the prayer thing, I don’t do it, but if anyone offers to pray for me I don’t tell them no. I can use whatever help I can get, and if their prayer somehow helps, then who am I to tell them no thanks? I just had major surgery with complications, and survived it. I don’t think it was just my doctor who had a hand in making sure I came out ok. Maybe it takes seeing your life sort of flash before your eyes before you can see there’s something more. And no, I don’t have a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/71 "2005-05-06T00:58:44Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I’m not religious or anything, but that seems like a sad way to go through life. I like to think there are lots of things out there that defy explanation. IMO, it’s naive to think that in this universe and whatever other universes are out there that humans on this planet could possibly be able to prove everything that they believe to be true. > > As for the prayer thing, I don’t do it, but if anyone offers to pray for me I don’t tell them no. I can use whatever help I can get, and if their prayer somehow helps, then who am I to tell them no thanks? > > I just had major surgery with complications, and survived it. I don’t think it was just my doctor who had a hand in making sure I came out ok. Maybe it takes seeing your life sort of flash before your eyes before you can see there’s something more. And no, I don’t have a cite for that. They may defy explaination, they may exist. But you _still_ can’t do anything with them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/72 "2005-05-06T01:18:51Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Your fudging your statments, my little hot air engine regulatory commission member! Uh, dude, look in the upper right hand corner of this post. See the location? OK, now, if you don’t lay off the name calling, I’m gonna seriously start messin’ with your blood sugar levels. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/73 "2005-05-06T12:10:54Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Uh, dude, look in the upper right hand corner of this post. See the location? > > OK, now, if you don’t lay off the name calling, I’m gonna seriously start messin’ with your blood sugar levels. But I am the friendliest of Og’s creatures, Oh Mango-ed One! And the location conveys nothing. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/74 "2005-05-06T18:40:04Z")
Hint: what cells are necessary to control your blood sugar level? ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/75 "2005-05-06T22:20:10Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > It doesn’t work that way, my little chatterbox! > And that wasn’t it, my little Slobbovian Yodeler. > Well, bless your little heart! > my little arthropod. > now wouldn’t we my little 3/8 inch bolt retainer > my little hot air engine regulatory commission member Wow, Bosda, I actually used to have a rather good opinion of your debating/informative styles. Now? I’m ready to vomit from all the false sweetness that is oozing from your posts in this thread. I’ve yet to read ANYTHING useful from you in here. Condescending is the term that springs to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/76 "2005-05-07T02:05:29Z")
> [@Tastes of Chocolate](#): > > Wow, Bosda, I actually used to have a rather good opinion of your debating/informative styles. Now? I’m ready to vomit from all the false sweetness that is oozing from your posts in this thread. I’ve yet to read ANYTHING useful from you in here. Condescending is the term that springs to mind. **Chocolate** , your post is reasonable. However– I’ve heard this argument before, many many times. Somebody makes an extraordinary claim, be it about UFOs, Bigfoot, God, or 9/11. We all chime in, pointing out that you need extraordinary proof to back extraordinary claims, & the claimant has merely provided whimsy. The claimant then always begins special pleading, coming up with excuses as to why _their_ rubbish deserves special treatment, when _nobody_ should get it. Their silly replies to discrediting facts always boil down to “Yeah, but what if it were true?” Just like a little kid, who won’t give up their make-belive games. And it gets old! ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/77 "2005-05-07T02:14:16Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > These people are truly insane if they think sitting around and chanting to icons is going to do diddle squat in the war against drugs. > > That there is a discussion on this thread giving an iota of credence to this lunacy is somewhat mind-boggling. > > What’s next? > > Plan B: Import Voodoo dolls from Haiti. > Plan C: Hire a few pagans to put a hex on the dealers. > Plan D: Get that rainmaker from the next county to make it rain on dealer’s stash. > Plan E: Build a wheelchair at ramp at City Hall so we can get both Siegfried AND Roy to make them disappear. Plan E: Sell musical instruments and uniforms to sell to start up a marching band in a small town in I-owa. Teach them to play by the “Think” System. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/78 "2005-05-07T06:07:02Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I’ve heard this argument before, many many times. Somebody makes an extraordinary claim, be it about UFOs, Bigfoot, God, or 9/11. We all chime in, pointing out that you need extraordinary proof to back extraordinary claims, & the claimant has merely provided whimsy. The claimant then always begins special pleading, coming up with excuses as to why _their_ rubbish deserves special treatment, when _nobody_ should get it. Their silly replies to discrediting facts always boil down to “Yeah, but what if it were true?” Just like a little kid, who won’t give up their make-belive games. > And it gets old! Very well said, Bosda. Let’s leave the onus on the tinfoil hat folks to rationally prove their points. ---
**Author:** ![Low\_Key\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Low\_Key\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Low_Key_1)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/79 "2005-05-07T09:15:18Z")
I’ve found some compelling evidence that prayer works! Perhaps the people of Ottawa should ask Eileen Hyde and Lynda Morgan for some advice on how to pray successfully. > [@](#): > > 1st Place: “Using Prayer To Microevolve Latent Antibiotic Resistance In Bacteria” > Eileen Hyde and Lynda Morgan (grades 10 & 11) did a project showing how the power of prayer can unlock the latent genes in bacteria, allowing them to microevolve antibiotic resistance. Escherichia coli bacteria cultured in agar filled petri dishes were subjected to the antibiotics tetracycline and chlorotetracycline. The bacteria cultures were divided into two groups, one group (A) received prayer while the other (B) didn’t. The prayer was as follows: “Dear Lord, please allow the bacteria in Group A to unlock the antibiotic-resistant genes that You saw fit to give them at the time of Creation. Amen.” The process was repeated for five generations, with the prayer being given at the start of each generation. In the end, Group A was significantly more resistant than Group B to both antibiotics. [Link](http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html) (their experiment can be found about half way down the page) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/80 "2005-05-07T13:45:01Z")
Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194.md?page=5)