# Community Has Drug Problem: Here Is Their Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194 "2005-05-03T05:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/81 "2005-05-07T14:22:17Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > The idea is to pray to stop drug addiction. That’s the entire plan in a nutshell: > [http://www.inottawa.com/archives/ottawa/sections.cgi?prcss=display&id=202341](http://www.inottawa.com/archives/ottawa/sections.cgi?prcss=display&id=202341) > > So, what do you think are the chances of success? > > My guess is the chances are zero. I don’t believe in god. However, if I did I’d pray for world peace. I like the idea of a peaceful planet with lots of drugs. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/82 "2005-05-07T17:23:17Z")
Doesn’t look any dumber than AA’s 12 steps to me… ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/83 "2005-05-08T07:53:44Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > Doesn’t look any dumber than AA’s 12 steps to me… I am not in AA, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe they pray for _themself_ to refrain from drinking alcohol, one day at a time. One prayer, one person, one goal. They are not praying together with any hopes of ending all alchoholism in the community. And if I am wrong, and they actually are praying to end all alchoholism…well, further proof that group prayer on social issues doesn’t work all that well. Or should I say, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![quelquechose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6f9a4e/32.png) [@quelquechose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quelquechose)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/84 "2005-05-08T13:26:59Z")
I’m not sure why so many people here are suggesting that prayer is untestable. I just took (and hopefully passed) the AP Statistics test on Wednesday, and the question of how to determine the efficacy of prayer is just a basic experimental design question like those that appear on the test. Depending on the exact claims made for what prayer does, it should be easy to test for statistically significant effects. For example, a large group of sick people could be randomly divided into two groups, one of which is prayed for while the other is not. Then, each subject is asked to rate the improvement of their condition on a scale of 1-100. Average values for each group are calculated, as are the standard deviations of data for each group. A two sample t-test for means is performed, which will indicate whether or not a statistically significant difference in improvement has occurred. The null hypothesis is that the two population means are equal, that is that prayer has had no effect; and the alternative hypothesis is that the population mean for the prayed-for group exceeds that of the other. This test would show statistically significant improvement even if the difference is very small, so long as the sample size is large enough. This type of experiment is done all the time to test the effectiveness of drugs. One important thing to note here is that at an alpha level of 0.05, significant improvement would be detected in one out of twenty such studies even if there is no actual difference. A study showing a significant difference in improvement would probably be more likely to be reported than one that does not. This is why studies like this should be repeatable. ---
**Author:** ![rkts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@rkts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rkts)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/85 "2005-05-08T18:14:37Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Uh-uh. First off, it’s a well-known maxim in science, that nothing can truly be proven, you can only find that a preponderance of evidence makes it highly likely that a given proposition/theory is true. I can prove scientifically that all the marbles in a bag are blue. I don’t find a preponderance of evidence for it, I prove it. However, in science we generally don’t have all the marbles, we just have a few of them. As an example, take gravity. Since we have not observed every piece of matter in the universe at every given time, we can only say that _in some places_ and _at some times_ gravity exists. **Induction** is when we make a leap and say: _in all places_ and _at all times_ gravity exists. We cannot demonstrate this to be true, but it is of such great practical importance to do so, that we assume it is true until we find any evidence against it (i.e. that in some places and at some times gravity _does not_ exist). The argument about prayer does not work this way because what is being asserted is that _in some places_ and _at some times_ prayer works. Put another way: What you are trying to do is falsify the hypothesis that _in no place_ and _at no time_ does prayer work. Given appropriate evidence, this can be done in a strictly deductive manner which requires no assumptions and affords no uncertainty. Granted, in practical terms, obtaining evidence of a causal relationship between prayer and an event would be tricky, given our limited knowledge of causes, and would require a repeatable, controlled experiment such as the one **quelquechose** has described. If you refuse to submit your hypothesis to such a test, then it fails because it is not falsifiable. In that case it can only be an object of faith, not science, and is, to most of us, useless. (And **quelquechose** , _I_ certainly hope you passed the AP Statistics test – if you didn’t, I’m screwed!) ---
**Author:** ![rkts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@rkts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rkts)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/86 "2005-05-09T00:55:48Z")
> [@rkts](#): > > **Induction** is when we make a leap and say: _in all places_ and _at all times_ gravity exists. We cannot demonstrate this to be true, but it is of such great practical importance to do so, that we assume it is true until we find any evidence against it . . . Wow, that was disastrously worded. By “it is of such great practical importance to do so,” I refer to the aforementioned leap-taking, not to the demonstrating. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/87 "2005-05-10T23:11:35Z")
Google for Chimayo, NM. Supposedly in the late 80’s they had the highest per-capita rate of heroin addiction in the US. This is a community of only a few thousand, so it was probably not that many addicts, and NO I don’t know how that was determined. Anyway, a bunch of the adult addicts got togethor and started a faith-based kidk-the-habit campagn, which has had noticeable success. Note that this is a strongly Catholic community centered around thier church Santuario de Chimayo, which draws Easter-Eay pilgrams from around NM…so their church ties and faith may be a little stronger than many places. ---
**Author:** ![Antivenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Antivenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antivenin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/88 "2005-05-12T05:44:44Z")
But, as I’ve already pointed out, there’s plenty evidence that prayer doesn’t work. Insurance companies charge smokers higher rates. Why don’t they charge atheists higher rates? I believe, I believe, I swear!–Pleeeaassee lower my insurance rate Or, maybe I could get someone to pray my DWI away… ---
**Author:** ![Antivenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Antivenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antivenin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/89 "2005-05-12T05:46:24Z")
Quoted from Pochacco Forgot the “…” ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/90 "2005-05-12T06:50:27Z")
find a bunch “faithful” have them pray for heads, comence the coin flips. sounds like a pretty easy test for me, and you could win that million bucks while youre at it. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/91 "2005-05-12T06:51:30Z")
thats “of” faithful :smack: ---
**Author:** ![What\_Is\_Schwa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8baadc/32.png) [@What\_Is\_Schwa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Is_Schwa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/92 "2005-05-12T08:06:58Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > If you want to use prayer in your own life to solve your problems, that is your life - nothing I can, and refuse to, judge on. Your choices are yours, and I accept that. **However,** if a community uses prayer as a mechanism for a deterent of crime, I can take offense to it because it is no longer someone’s personal “wacky ritual.” At that point in time my life is affected and I would rather have tested, proven methods of intervention to be employed. Your life is affected how? If a bunch of people bowing their heads silently and hoping for good in your community make your sphincters tighten I know a guy who knows a guy who has the cure for you. You’re in luck too, the first one is free. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fringe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5a626/32.png) [@Fringe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fringe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194/93 "2005-05-12T12:52:15Z")
> [@What Is Schwa](#): > > Your life is affected how? If a bunch of people bowing their heads silently and hoping for good in your community make your sphincters tighten I know a guy who knows a guy who has the cure for you. You’re in luck too, the first one is free. 😉 I think that the problem doesn’t lie so much in sphincter tightening as it does with prayer being used as a method of controlling and solving a drug problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/community-has-drug-problem-here-is-their-plan/302194.md?page=4)