# Compare & Contrast Presidential Candidates Without Fear Here!!!!!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [February 25, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204 "2019-02-25T20:14:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/21 "2019-02-26T02:50:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> AOC and Sanders for two.
Okay, I guess I’ll read up on how Sanders’ platform matches MMT.
So who’re you rooting for?
---
### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/22 "2019-02-26T02:53:22Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> Not that UBI will suddenly result in an explosion of Maslowian self-fulfilled citizens but it will start the process.
Look there are people on food stamps with hungry children. Why? Personal choices. UBI does not make someone a good decision maker, or even an adequate one. Are you going to step into individuals’ personal lives? Make sure they feed their children?
It is easier to fulfill the basic needs than it has been in the history of the human race. There’s no need to engage in massive transfers to make it a little easier.
---
### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/23 "2019-02-26T02:54:23Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> Okay, I guess I’ll read up on how Sanders’ platform matches MMT.
>
> So who’re you rooting for?
Anyone who will make a good antiwar case.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/24 "2019-02-26T03:00:44Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> Curious, then – what would you have, ideally, and which candidate best approximates it?
There are no candidates which approximate it, considering my ideal is “the workers should seize the means of production.”
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/25 "2019-02-26T03:29:21Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> So Andrew’s funding mechanism makes it in effect 1.3 trillion (1.5, something like that):
>
> 1. Tech VAT capturing the value created by tech companies such as every robo-truck mile logged and every Google search served
>
> 2. Savings through folks leaving many welfare programs such as SSDI/SSI which has become a de facto DIY UBI
>
> 3. Savings through decreased prison populations and healthcare needs, including substance abuse
>
> 4. Receipts from businesses experiencing increased sales due to UBI
>
> 5. Receipts from the entrepreneurial startups many would create with UBI
>
> He has an Economics degree from Brown, a corporate law degree from Columbia, sold his successful startup to the Washington Post for millions, then started a successful non-profit that staffs “Forgotten America” startups with business grads.
Oops:
1. Income tax from increased employment from businesses experienced increased business!
Though Andrew has said on Iowa TV that if economic conditions are right, he’s interested in abolishing the (presumably federal) income tax sometime in the future!!
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/26 "2019-02-26T03:37:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Look there are people on food stamps with hungry children. Why? Personal choices.
So President Eisenhower was wrong?
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> UBI does not make someone a good decision maker, or even an adequate one.
Making good decisions, they say, comes from experience.
Experience comes from making bad decisions.
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Are you going to step into individuals’ personal lives? Make sure they feed their children?
We already do – by law one has to feed one’s children.
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> It is easier to fulfill the basic needs than it has been in the history of the human race.
The problem is one of distribution systems.
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> There’s no need to engage in massive transfers to make it a little easier.
VOX POPVLI VOX DEI
If the people vote for it, then DEVS VULT.
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/27 "2019-02-26T03:40:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> Anyone who will make a good antiwar case.
Okay…what would be a “good antiwar case” to you?
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/28 "2019-02-26T03:44:44Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> There are no candidates which approximate it,
So what do you want here?
I’m serious (not being “snarky”).
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> considering my ideal is “the workers should seize the means of production.”
So where do you work?
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/29 "2019-02-26T03:52:32Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> So what do you want here?
>
> I’m serious (not being “snarky”).
I mean, I don’t expect any candidate to support this, but I would like it to come more into the line of acceptable discourse. I’m part of the IWW though, so there’s always the veritable pipe dream of “we hit critical mass someday and the one big union organizes the one big strike.”
> [@](#):
>
> So where do you work?
I’m a graduate research assistant at a university.
---
### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/30 "2019-02-26T04:44:35Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> I mean, consider that many, if not most, folks on disability aren’t exactly disabled but using it as a kinda DIY UBI anyway!!
Got a cite for this claim?
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/31 "2019-02-26T07:05:43Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> I mean, I don’t expect any candidate to support this, but I would like it to come more into the line of acceptable discourse. I’m part of the IWW though, so there’s always the veritable pipe dream of “we hit critical mass someday and the one big union organizes the one big strike.”
What’s the “this”?? You want to revive the union movement?
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> I’m a graduate research assistant at a university.
So what would it mean for you to “seize the means of production” at your workplace?
I mean, literally, how would your duties change, your routine, et cetera?
---
### Author:  [@DavidChou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidChou)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/32 "2019-02-26T07:06:43Z")
> [@choie](#):
>
> Got a cite for this claim?
What would you consider a citation?
---
### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/33 "2019-02-26T07:26:33Z")
The conversation would make more sense if Andrew Yang were talked about as “a man with ideas worth debating who has chosen a Presidential campaign as a path to publicity” rather than speaking of a Yang Presidency as though it were possible or desirable. I will be dismayed if energy is wasted on Yang’s campaign that could be better spent ensuring victory against Trump and the R’s.
Frankly, the _ideas_ of the Democratic Presidential contenders are of absolutely no interest to me except as they affect electability. For example, I’m vetoing Kamala Harris because of her strong anti-gun stance. Gun control is an issue of no interest to me … but a strong stance may make it hard to get support from many voters.
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#):
>
> … I think Yang’s UBI is better than Harris’ tax credit because it creates a disincentive to make more than $100K, at which time you lose $500/mo. That’s why Yang chose to make the payment available to every citizen without conditions.
I might also avoid means testing for other reasons. But the “cliff” problem with Harris’ program is a problem with many programs and can easily be avoided.
Instead of a flat $500 monthly rebate all the way up to $99,999 of annual income after which it drops to zero, simply set the rebate amount to, for example,
_the Larger of {Zero, the Smaller of {$500, f(annual\_income/1000) } }
where f(x) = 500 - x - x^2÷25_
I’m not sure whether it is the innumeracy of citizens, innumeracy of legislators, or the presumed innumeracy of accountants and programmers which means such useful formulae are avoided in “preference” to simplistic _disincentivizing cliffs_.
---
### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/34 "2019-02-26T07:38:08Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> I will be dismayed if energy is wasted on Yang’s campaign that could be better spent ensuring victory against Trump and the R’s.
The very same spirit which propels the idea of UBI should also propel us toward
(1) free single-payer health care for Americans, and
(2) improvements to public schools that don’t mutate into opportunities for Betsy DeVos’ criminal friends, or taxpayer funding for anti-science propaganda.
These relatively simple goals would go a long way toward the goals of UBI. Let’s start by seeing if America is up to these tasks.
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/35 "2019-02-26T15:07:24Z")
I’m at least theoretically in favor of UBI, though I’d really like to see some smaller-scale experiments before rolling it out in a nation of a third of a billion people, because theory doesn’t always match reality.
That said, even if I were 100% gung-ho on UBI, I’d still support Sanders over Yang, because Sanders is actually running for President and Yang isn’t. There’s a chance that Sanders might decide to support UBI, and a larger chance that he’d take steps that move in that general direction, but there’s no chance that Yang will run for President, at least this cycle, and no indications that he’ll even start making moves in the direction of running for President.
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/36 "2019-02-26T15:56:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Tech VAT capturing the value created by tech companies such as every robo-truck mile logged and every Google search served
Collecting this would be challenging.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Savings through folks leaving many welfare programs such as SSDI/SSI which has become a de facto DIY UBI
I don’t get this one. If a UBI is less than SSDI and SSI, then we will save money. If it isn’t, we don’t.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Savings through decreased prison populations and healthcare needs, including substance abuse
Also don’t get this. If we give people money, their health care needs decrease? Or they stop dealing drugs/shooting each other/robbing liquor stores because the UBI pays better than crime?
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Receipts from businesses experiencing increased sales due to UBI
I don’t see why business overall would experience increased sales. Every dollar that someone receiving the UBI spends replaces a dollar spent by the taxpayer funding UBI. If the UBI is funding by borrowing, that is inflationary.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Receipts from the entrepreneurial startups many would create with UBI
Again, not clear. People are going to start up businesses because they don’t have to work? Or they won’t care if their businesses turn a profit because they have outside income? What receipts would you tax in that case?
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/37 "2019-02-26T17:15:02Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> What would you consider a citation?
Let’s start with wherever you got the idea that “many, if not most, folks on disability aren’t exactly disabled but using it as a kinda DIY UBI anyway!!”
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/38 "2019-02-26T17:52:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Quoth **Shodan** :
>
> Every dollar that someone receiving the UBI spends replaces a dollar spent by the taxpayer funding UBI.
UBI would, overall, be a transfer (“redistribution”, if you prefer that word) of wealth from the richer to the poorer, and the poorer, on average, spend a greater proportion of their wealth. So one would, in fact, expect UBI to increase consumer spending.
---
### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/39 "2019-02-26T18:26:35Z")
> [@DavidChou](#):
>
> Worth a try? Because it’s a ticking time-bomb.
What’s a ticking time bomb?
I disagree that a bad plan is “worth a try”. The existence of a problem doesn’t imply that a particular solution is worth trying.
> [@](#):
>
> Well, what percentage of slackers at any given moment could you tolerate? Because there’s always “waste” – 80% of your gasoline doesn’t actually move the car forward; did you know that?
Sure, waste exists. But we shouldn’t pursue a policy that leads to _more_ of it. Just like we should try to build cars that are more efficient, not _less_ efficient.
> [@](#):
>
> No – a $20 trillion economy with only revenue of $4 trillion…um, something’s not right there. Like very deeply seriously wrong.
I don’t understand what this means, or how it relates to the part of my post you quoted just before it.
> [@](#):
>
> The reason you see so much slacking today is because people’s jobs are so hard, whether physically or otherwise…so they don’t want to deal with anything else at the end of the day.
First of all, this is totally wrong. People’s jobs are not harder today than they were in the past. It’s just that non-productive ways to spend your time are so much more plentiful and engaging. But also this misses the point. I’m not talking about people who _work_ and also waste time on the internet. I’m talking about people who _don’t work_ and waste time on the internet. They’re not resting up from the hardships of their employment. They’re just being unproductive.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> UBI would, overall, be a transfer (“redistribution”, if you prefer that word) of wealth from the richer to the poorer, and the poorer, on average, spend a greater proportion of their wealth. So one would, in fact, expect UBI to increase consumer spending.
True. But unless it also increases production, the result will be inflation. So far I don’t see much to support the idea that UBI is going to increase the supply of anything societally useful.
I am interesting in seeing some more UBI experiments as well, but I am very skeptical of the ones I’ve seen so far, which tend to be short-term. I think that such experiments tell you nothing useful about how people will really respond to UBI. If you go to someone and say “we’re going to give you this guaranteed income for a 3-year study”, they’re mostly going to take the money and keep making their normal life plans. Because obviously the money is going away and what are you going to do after three years?
But what we need to know is what they do when the offer is “we’re going to give you this guaranteed income for the rest of your life”. Do they live a productive life?
That particular study would take quite a long time, but we have some natural experiments that we could draw from. How do moderate lottery winners fare? A family of four, say, that wins $1 million paid out over 20 years is pretty close to the $1000/mo. 20 years isn’t forever, but it’s long enough that I think it’s going to tell us something useful. Are lottery winners more productive members of society than their cohort?
---
### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204/40 "2019-02-26T18:29:57Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> Giving real money to folks who won’t or can’t work
Here’s the problem: the population of people who _can’t_ work won’t really be changed by policy. Either you are able to work or you aren’t. But the population of people who _won’t_ work is very flexible.
There are a few people who could work but won’t, and not much is going to change that. And there are a few people who get great satisfaction out of working and will do so regardless of whether they need the money.
But in between, _lots of people_ won’t work if they have enough money not to. A policy that gives a bunch of people who could work, who would do work useful work in the absence of that policy, an incentive not to do so is a _really bad_ policy!
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-contrast-presidential-candidates-without-fear-here/830204.md?page=3)