# Compare pictures from Holocaust with Gaza-pictures in a mail ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298 "2009-01-21T14:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/181 "2009-01-25T07:23:04Z")
Really not going to dance to your tune Clair. And I’ll use an object lesson to show why there’s no point in pretending that your argument is going to get any better than it has been up to now. I’ll just point out this one instance as it really does highlight the quaility of your argument through all its many distortions and permutations. > [@clairobscur](#): > > What about actually addressing my point, for once? What about explaining why you jumped at the first chance of comparing this Israeli girl to a victim of the nazis in a thread where you state that Palestinian kids shouldn’t be compared with victims of the nazis? Not only have I addressed your point, I have done so no fewer than four times. Once in the post you’re now responding to. > [@](#): > > What you ignore, repeatedly of course, is that if Israel was trying to exterminate the Palestinians, then the comparisons made between Nazi death camps and Israeli checkpoints/barriers would have been valid. In at least that respect. It would still not have meant that Israel=Nazis, and since the Nazis had the government direct business, that the Isrelis must do so in the same way. But it would have shown that in that one respect, they behaved in the same manner. That’s the same reason that showing Serbian death camps and Nazi death camps would be an accurate comparision, even if Serbs=/= Nazis. > > Likewise, showing that Hezbollah and the Nazis both deliberately targeted civilians and that those civilians were perfectly justified in wishing (or even ~gasp!!!~ ‘envisioning’ ) an armed response against them. And that, as a result, in that detail, they was an accurate parallel. And to deny it was to have an argument which was intellectually dishonest. Not that Hezbollah =/= Nazis, but that both Hezbollah and the Nazis deliberately tried to kill civilians and those civilians, even young girls, were perfectly justified in wishing a military response against those groups > > Of course, I never claimed the comparison was random and I’ve gone to great length to point out exactly why I used such a bright line example in order to point out the intellectual dishonesty of an argument that is okay with Anne Frank ‘envisioning’ Hitler being assassinated but argues for it being horrible when an Israeli girl ‘envisioned’ Hezbollah being bombed so they’d stop firing rockets at her. > > You must have missed that the same way you’ve missed the content of your own posts. > . > [@](#): > > The point of my using the example of Anne Frank is not to draw a 1:1 parallel between Hezbollah and the Nazis, but to provide a ‘bright line example’ of a case in which most of us would be totally understanding of a young girl’s desire for someone to be killed. > [@](#): > > Try to figure out why a comparison of one girl under threat of death by a genocidal group would be comparable to another girl under thread of death by a genocidal group. Try to figure out what the victims of one civilian-targeted campaign might have in common with the victims of another civilian-targeted campaign, even if those carrying out the civilian-targeted campaigns were different. > [@](#): > > One analogy serves a basic purpose while another is obfuscatory precisely because one analogy is designed to point out that even civilized people accept that in cases of self-defense one can use lethal force and that if one has already accepted that a girl targeted for murder by the Nazis can wish for the Nazis to be killed that it intellectual honesty demands that a another girl under threat of murder can also wish for her would-be killers to be stopped by lethal force… while the second analogy attempts to equate the Nazi policy of genocide with the IDF’s policy of hitting valid military targets. And of course, when it’s pointed out that no, Israel didn’t solely cause the situation and that the war was largely brought about by the Nazi-Arab alliance’s attempt at genocide, you again try to shift the discussion and get all annoyed that I had the audacity to bring up facts. How dare I mention that someone started the war, or tried to commit genocide, or was allied with the Nazis. How dare I mention history when you’re trying to blame Israel for everything! Why, you are, with intellectual honesty, trying to lay the blame for the Palestinians’ leadership’s action on Israel’s leaders, how dare I get in the way with _facts_??? There is simply no chance of me getting your argument to adhere to basic standards of intellectual integrity. None. You are rationalizing at full tilt in support of your pre-judged house of cards. I’ve done my best, but I can’t change how you’re arguing. And I’m going to stop trying. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/182 "2009-01-25T07:30:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And when your double standards and myopic biases are pointed out, you do your best to immediately create false equivalences and tu quoque fallacies so you can try to shift the topic of discussion. Exactly like you did the last time I cited the record of UN deception, coverups and agenda-driven demonization of Israel, and you responded by implying that if I didn’t believe proven liars with an agenda, that I must uncritically believe anything that an Israeli source says. _My_ double standards? That’s a joke, surely? I don’t even remember what post you’re referring to here, or what thread, so I’m not going to dig it up. Feel free to quote it to show the extent of my bad faith. I’m not particularly worried. Meanwhile, I would mention that indeed I’m certainly going to believe what an UN envoy said rather than believing what one of the party in the conflict said. And as for you applying critical thinking to Israel’s stance, that also has to be a joke. > [@](#): > > With this most recent absurdity, you actually became upset and asked how dare I demonstrate that people support one girl under mortal-threat in wishing that those who’d kill her would themselves be killed, but get all up in arms about an Israeli girl doing the exact same thing. Maybe it’s my English skills, but I don’t even understand what you’re saying here. > [@](#): > > It was a bit funny that while in the business of arguing in favor of a double standard, you fallaciously accused me of having one. When, of course, in fact both Anne Frank and Israelis were/are civilians deliberately targeted for death, while you grasped at straws and tried to obfuscate by bringing up Palstinan civilians who were not the target of attacks. _I_ brought in Palestinian victims in a thread concerning a site devoted to Palestinians victims??? I _grasped at straws_ and _tried to obfuscate_ by referring to Palestinian victims in a thread concerning a site devoted to Palestinians victims??? I _fallaciously_ accused you of having a double standard when in the same thread, you first condemn a comparison between Palestinians children and victims of the nazis and jump at the first chance you have to compare a random Israeli girl with victims of the nazis??? And finally : NO! Definitely NO! This girl writing on the bomb is not, absolutely not the same as a girl who died in an extermination camp. Except of course if you’re saying that every person who is part of a population that is deliberately targeted by someone somewhere is, similarly, the same as a person who died in an extermination camp. That’s what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/183 "2009-01-25T08:04:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What you ignore, repeatedly of course, is that if Israel was trying to exterminate the Palestinians, then the comparisons made between Nazi death camps and Israeli checkpoints/barriers _would_ have been valid. In at least that respect. And we’re on again with attacking me for things I never said. But at this point, it’s becoming more than simply irritating, it’s becoming insulting. When exactly did I say that Israel was trying to exterminate the Palestinians? When did I make comparisons between Israeli checkpoint and death camps? > [@](#): > > It would still not have meant that Israel=Nazis, and since the Nazis had the government direct business, that the Isrelis must do so in the same way. And I said that Israel=Nazis where? > [@](#): > > But it would have shown that in that one respect, they behaved in the same manner. That’s the same reason that showing Serbian death camps and Nazi death camps _would_ be an accurate comparision, even if Serbs=/= Nazis. What are “Serbian death camps” doing here? > [@](#): > > Likewise, showing that Hezbollah and the Nazis both deliberately targeted civilians and that those civilians were perfectly justified in wishing (or even ~gasp!!!~ ‘envisioning’ :rolleyes:) an armed response against them. And that, as a result, in that detail, they was an accurate parallel. And to deny it was to have an argument which was intellectually dishonest. Not that Hezbollah =/= Nazis, but that both Hezbollah and the Nazis deliberately tried to kill civilians and those civilians, even young girls, were perfectly justified in wishing a military response against those groups. So, both the Hezbollah and the nazis targeted civilians. And targeted civilians are justified in wishing a military response. Thanks for the informations, I would never have known that without this lengthy explanation. So, since the nazis and the Hezbollah were both targeting civilians, or both used weapons, or were both living in the northern hemisphere, it’s perfectly logical to equate a random Israeli girl with a girl who died in a death camp. Right, it’s exactly the same thing. Also, both the Israelis and the nazis shelled cities, and children were killed in both cases. So, it’s perfectly logical to equate dead Palestinian children and children who died in death camps. And because civilians might want a military response, it’s perfectly sensible to let little girls write messages on bombs. Obviously, it logically ensues : “we want a military response=let’s send our daughter write on bombs”. I can’t even begin to understand why you’re writing page after page just to support the right of little girls to write messages on bombs. > [@](#): > > Of course, I never claimed the comparison was random and I’ve gone to great length to point out exactly why I used such a bright line example in order to point out the intellectual dishonesty of an argument that is okay with Anne Frank ‘envisioning’ Hitler being assassinated but argues for it being horrible when an Israeli girl ‘envisioned’ Hezbollah being bombed so they’d stop firing rockets at her. And since I never said it’s surprising that little girls might want revenge, you could have spared your time. And after your lengthy explanations, I still : -Think that the comparison with Anne Frank is not acceptable, especially in a thread where you condemn comparisons of Palestinian kids with victims of nazism. -Think that little girls shouldn’t write messages on bombs. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/184 "2009-01-25T08:29:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Really not going to dance to your tune Clair. > And I’ll use an object lesson to show why there’s no point in pretending that your argument is going to get any better than it has been up to now. > > I’ll just point out this one instance as it really does highlight the quaility of your argument through all its many distortions and permutations. > > Not only have I addressed your point, I have done so no fewer than four times. > Once in the post you’re now responding to. I’ve read it, now. And as you can see, I still reject the comparison between this girl and Anne Franck. > [@](#): > > And of course, when it’s pointed out that no, Israel didn’t solely cause the situation and that the war was largely brought about by the Nazi-Arab alliance’s attempt at genocide, The Nazi-Arab attempt at genocide? In what alternate reality did it happen? And no, pointing at a mullah who lauded Hitler isn’t going to let me accept this “Nazi-Arab genocide” nonsense. > [@](#): > > you again try to shift the discussion and get all annoyed that I had the audacity to bring up facts. How dare I mention that someone started the war, or tried to commit genocide, or was allied with the Nazis. If you want me to take your post seriously, you might want to remove your genocidal Arabo-Nazi alliance in 1948 theory from the table. > [@](#): > > How dare I mention history when you’re trying to blame Israel for everything! Why, you are, with intellectual honesty, trying to lay the blame for the Palestinians’ leadership’s action on Israel’s leaders, how dare I get in the way with _facts_??? I blamed Israel for everything? I blamed Israel for not letting back the Palestinians. That’s not a fact, maybe? And I stated that it’s Israel responsibility, and that as a result Israel should indemnify them. The newly discovered Arabo-Nazis won’t change my mind on this issue. > [@](#): > > There is simply no chance of me getting your argument to adhere to basic standards of intellectual integrity. None. You are rationalizing at full tilt in support of your pre-judged house of cards. I’ve done my best, but I can’t change how you’re arguing. > And I’m going to stop trying. My response to you would be identical, word for word. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/185 "2009-01-25T10:27:35Z")
Ah well. While I’m not going to play games, I will not allow anybody reading along to be misinformed. No wonder it’s taking longer than we thought. Some facts about the Arab-Nazi alliance. According to Eichman’s deputy: > [@](#): > > The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz. The Grand Mufti helped bring about the coup in Iraq in 1941 in cooperation with Nazi Germany. In his memoirs, he wrote: [ > [@](#): > > Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours. ]([The Iraq coup of Raschid Ali in 1941, the Mufti Husseini and the Farhud (Farhoud)](http://www.mideastweb.org/iraqaxiscoup.htm)) Mideastweb goes on to point out: > [@](#): > > The deposed Grand Mufti and Palestinian leader, Haj Amin El Husseini, became an active collaborator in the Nazi war effort, broadcasting for Berlin and organizing SS troops in Yugoslavia. The Iraqi revolt provided a model of how trouble in Palestine could spill over into other countries and destabilize the Middle East. The activities and career of the Mufti, always disquieting, became a source of anxiety for most of the rulers in the Middle East. They feared, with some justice, that he was out to unseat them, either as part of a plan to take power in Palestine by removing the British and their supporters from the Middle East, or else after he head taken power in Palestine. In Iraq, the seeds of anti-Jewish feeling that were stirred up in this period came to the fore again in 1948, after the establishment of the State of Israel. > > For the Jews of Palestine, the Mufti was a source of nightmares. Dieter Wisliceny, Eichmann’s deputy had told Rudolf Kastner, who was in touch with the Jewish Agency, that the Mufti had been influential in determining the fate of European Jews, and the Mufti later confided to the British that he envisioned the same solution for the Jews of Palestine. It is safe to assume that these plans were known to the Zionist leadership. The Jewish community of Palestine were aware not only of the Farhud, and of the Mufti’s hair-raising calls on Nazi Radio to “kill the Jews wherever you find them.” They had also seen the slaughter inflicted on Jews and Arabs by the Mufti and his followers during the Palestinian revolt. These facts, in addition to other public Arab statements about massacring the Jews, likely helped convince the Jews of Palestine that they were facing a war of extinction in 1948. And: > [@](#): > > 1. Eichmann and the Mufti and Mufti involvement with Nazism - The involvement of the Mufti with Nazism and with the extermination of the Jews in Europe, must be documented carefully, because there are systematic attempts to deny it for reasons that have nothing to do with historical veracity, and on the other hand, there seem to be some attempts to embroider and dramatize it, perhaps beyond what is warranted by the evidence. > > […] > > Evidence introduced at the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem indicates however that the Mufti and Eichmann were close and that the Mufti was an important role in instigating the Holocaust, according to second hand testimony of Steiner regarding Dieter Wisliceny, Eichmann’s deputy for Slovakia and Hungary: > > " State Attorney Bach: This is our document No. 281. Mr. Steiner first tells us that Wisliceny described his talks with Eichmann, why Palestine cannot be considered as the destination for emigration: “When I asked him why, he laughed and asked whether I had never heard of the Grand Mufti Husseini. He explained that the Mufti has very close contact and cooperation with Eichmann, and therefore Germany cannot agree to Palestine being the final destination, as this would be a blow to Germany’s prestige in the Mufti’s eyes.” > > Then he goes on: “At this further conversation Wisliceny gave me more details about the cooperation between Eichmann and the Mufti. The Mufti is a sworn enemy of the Jews and has always fought for the idea of annihilating the Jews. He sticks to this idea always, also in his talks with Eichmann” - and here we have one of the points about which Wisliceny has reservations - “who, as you know, is a German who was born in Palestine. The Mufti is one of the originators of the systematic destruction of European Jewry by the Germans, and he has become a permanent colleague, partner and adviser to Eichmann and Himmler in the implementation of this programme.” > > Here Wisliceny adds: “I have read these descriptions and find them correct, except for this, that Eichmann was born in Palestine, and that the Mufti was a permanent partner of Himmler’s; this is not what I said.” > > Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/1117." > Web source: [http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-050-07.html](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-050-07.html) > > The gist of the above can be confirmed from several sources, including Wisliceny himself. Reportedly, in June 1944, Wisliceny told Dr. Rudolf Kasztner in Budapest that he was convinced that the Mufti had played a role in the decision to exterminate the European Jews… The importance of this role must not be disregarded… The Mufti had repeatedly suggested to the various authorities with whom he was maintaining contact, above all to Hitler, Ribbentrop and Himmler, the extermination of European Jewry. He considered this as a comfortable solution of the Palestinian problem. > > […] > > When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt death camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled. Christopher Browning and Jürgen Matthäus point out in _The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy_, pointed out that Htiler guaranteed the Mufti that: > [@](#): > > ‘Germany has resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time, direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well’. When Germany had defeated Russia and broken through the Caucasus into the Middle East, it would have no further imperial goals of its own and would support Arab liberation… But Hitler did have one goal. Germany’s objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power. (Das deutsche Ziel würde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht lebenden Judentums sein). In short, Jews were not simply to be driven out of the German sphere but would be hunted down and destroyed even beyond it, The Nazis, with the Mufti’s cooperation, had planned on extending the Holocaust to the Middle East: [ > [@](#): > > STUTTGART, GERMANY - The Nazis made plans to conduct a Holocaust of Jews living in Palestine during the Second World War, according to German historians who have examined secret archives. > > The Nazis stationed a unit of ruthless troops in the Greek capital Athens with the task of landing in Palestine and murdering about 500,000 European Jews who had taken refuge there, the historians at the University of Stuttgart said Wednesday. But it never deployed. > […] > > The Allied defeat of Rommel at the end of 1942 had prevented the extension of the Holocaust to Palestine, they said. If Rommel had beaten the Allies in the desert and invaded Egypt, a push into Palestine would have followed and the unit would have deployed there. > > The researchers, whose findings appear in a new book entitled Germans, Jews, Genocide, said the Athens unit was intended to operate like Nazi units that hunted for Jews in eastern Europe and either massacred them or sent them to the Nazi death camps. > > Mallmann and Cueppers said the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their plans. > > “The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem,” they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. > > Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler’s chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter. ]([Expatica Germany: the largest online resource for expats](http://www.expatica.com/de/news/local_news/nazis-planned-holocaust-in-palestine-historians-29259.html)) German researchers recently reported their findings on the Arab-Nazi alliance, [ > [@](#): > > Separately, recently published research by two Stuttgart-based historians, Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers, claims that Hitler had worked out plans to extend the Holocaust to the Middle East, and that the Nazis had forged an alliance with Arab nationalists who wanted to drive the Jewish refugees out of Palestine – a murderous version of German-Arab friendship founded on common hatred of Jews. Jews living in the Middle East were petrified by Rommel’s victories. After seizing the British fortress of Tobruk in Libya in June 1942 he set his sights on the Suez Canal, on Palestine and the oil fields of the Middle East. > > “Those fighting Jewry can always rely on the sympathy of the Arab population,” the German army general staff wrote in an information booklet to prepare troops for the conquest of Palestine. > > Arabs Shouted “Heil Rommel” > > Hitler was celebrated in large parts of the Arab world, and some newspapers even likened him to the Prophet. The Desert Fox was almost as popular as Hitler. “Heil Rommel” was a common greeting in Arab countries. > > Many Arabs thought the Germans would free them from the rule of the old colonial powers France and Britain. Hitler had shown how to burst the shackles of the Treaty of Versailles. After Germany defeated France in 1940, chants against the French and British echoed around the streets of Damascus: “No more Monsieur, no more Mister, Allah’s in Heaven and Hitler’s on earth.” > > Adolf Hitler assured the exiled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammad Amin al-Husseini, at a meeting in Berlin in November 1941 that his goal was the “destruction of Jewry living in Arabia.” The Führer had racist objections to Arabs as well, though. He declined to shake the Mufti’s hand and refused to drink coffee with him. > > Hitler nevertheless provided the Mufti, who later sponsored Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, with a budget of 750,000 Reichsmark per month to foment Jihad in Palestine. In an example of ideological flexibility, the SS even recruited Muslim volunteers and declared that the Muslims living in the Balkans belonged to the “racially valuable” peoples of Europe. ]([World War II: New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel - DER SPIEGEL](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,484510,00.html)) During the war, the Grand Mufti helped recruit Muslim troops for the Nazis in Bosnia. After the war he was convicted by a Yugoslavian military court of war crimes but went on to escape and found refuge in Egypt. He was also responsible for the conduct of Al-Futwa, a militant organization dedicated to fighting the Jews in Palestine. In the runup to the war and in its prosecution itself, the same factors had their impact. The Syrian army, for instance, [had a number of Nazi officers who led it in 1948.](http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2003-04-syria.php) Part of the ceasefire terms, in fact, demanded that “European Nazis will be delivered to [the British] Military [authorities].” The Secretary General of the Arab League stated their position plainly by describing their goals as: > [@](#): > > This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades. In short, anybody who tells you that there was not an Arab-Nazi alliance, and that it wasn’t a significant factor in the events of 1948, is either ignorant of the facts or pushing an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/186 "2009-01-25T14:21:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In short, anybody who tells you that there was not an Arab-Nazi alliance, and that it wasn’t a significant factor in the events of 1948, is either ignorant of the facts or pushing an agenda. I already told you that mentioning a mullah who supported Hitler wouldn’t be sufficient to justify your “Arabo-Nazi” genocide stance. Sorry, I should have said a mufti, instead of a mullah. If we apply your rules to every people who had during WWII some well-know leader or group who was antisemite and supported Hitler, why don’t you write “Polish-Hungarian-Romanian-Yugoslavian-etc, etc,…Arab-Nazi” genocide? or just “European-Arab-Nazi genocide” to keep it simple? Certainly, many European countries, political groups, and individuals did more to support the genocide than the Arabs. Why is that that the genocide became an Arab-nazi affair? Apart from the fact that it’s convenient for the cause you’re crusading for to paint the Arabs as nazis? Or, if the action of a single group is enough to paint a whole population as genocidal, how comes we don’t talk about the genocidal Jews, or genocidal Israel, on the basis of the massacre of Deir-Yassin? But I see your point : if you throw enough propaganda at the wall, some of it will stick. And some people are going to walk out remembering your Arabs=Nazis meme. You’re abandoning any pretence of subtlety here. And again, it’s _you_ who are accusing others of having an agenda? That’s becoming a farce. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/187 "2009-01-25T19:45:23Z")
Oh, while I’m at it, the claim that what went on in the Mandate period is improperly mentioned in a discussion of the 1948 war is also counter-factual. It’s the essential context. The British Mandate created the territory we now know as Palestine, for example, as was largely due to the Balfour Declaration. [ > [@](#): > > It was neither more nor less in status than the exchange of letters with Prince Feisal. On the other hand, the British used the promise of a Jewish national home to extract from the League of Nations, with Zionist help, a large territory for the Mandate, creating a new territorial entity called “Palestine,” that had no status except in Christian holy books before 1917. The League Mandate incorporated the provisions of the Balfour declaration and expanded upon them. It was an explicit commitment, not just just promise, and it was approved and accepted by the League of Nations, the recognized international authority. > > As the declaration and the terms of the mandate became inconvenient for the British government, they altered or abrogated its terms in a series of White Papers, beginning with the Churchill White paper of 1922. ]([Middle East Documents Balfour Declaration](http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm)) Arab nationalism, which in large part was led by Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was also, in part, a reaction to the Mandate. As I’ve already proven as well, the Palestinian political leadership at that time, in particular, had allied with the Nazis in order to carry out the genocide of the Jews in the Middle East. It is unlikely that such an alliance would have formed if, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, European powers had not become the sovereigns over the region. During the Mandate period, proposed compromises were also floated and, in general, rejected . [ > [@](#): > > The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate. The Jews were alarmed by the prospect of such institutions, which would have an Arab majority. However, the Arabs would not accept proposals for such institutions if they included any Jews at all, and so no institutions were created. The Arabs wanted as little as possible to do with the Jews and the mandate, and would not participate in municipal councils, nor even in the Arab Agency that the British wanted to set up. ]([Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)](http://mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#The%20British%20Mandate)) Later, Arab opposition to the Mandate allowed Al-Husseini to help inflame passions and instigate pogroms and riots, which in turn led to the formation of the Haganah. > [@](#): > > In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The violence led to the formation of the Haganah Jewish self-defense organization in 1920. The riots of 1920 and 1921 reflected opposition to the Balfour declaration and fears that the Arabs of Palestine would be dispossessed, and were probably attempts to show the British that Palestine as a Jewish National home would be ungovernable. The major instigators were Hajj Amin El Husseini, later Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and eventually a Nazi collaborator, and Arif -El Arif, a prominent Palestinian journalist. The riots of 1929 occurred against the background of Jewish-Arab nationalist antagonism. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing and dispossessing the Arabs of Palestine. However, economic, population and other indicators suggest that objectively, the Arabs of Palestine benefited from the Mandate and Zionist investment. Arab standard of living increased faster in Palestine than other areas, and population grew prodigiously throughout the Mandate years. (see Zionism and its Impact). The riots were also fueled by false rumors that the Jews intended to build a synagogue at the wailing wall, or otherwise encroach upon the Muslim rule over the Temple Mount compound, including the Al-Aqsa mosque. The pogroms led to evacuation of most of the Jewish community of Hebron. Events would then lead to the Arab Revolt, which was again partially directed by Al-Husseini and possibly financed by Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. It was also during this period that a large part of Husseini’s political influence was consolidated > [@](#): > > Arab Revolt and the White Paper - In 1936 widespread rioting, later known as the Arab Revolt or Great Uprising, broke out. The revolt was kindled when British forces killed Izz al din El Qassam in a gun battle. Izz al Din El Qassam was a Syrian preacher who had emigrated to Palestine and was agitating against the British and the Jews. The revolt was coopted by the Husseini family and by Fawzi El Kaukji, a former Turkish officer, and it was possibly financed in part by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews were killed in the revolt, which spread rapidly owing to initial unpreparedness of the British authorities. About half the 5,000 residents of the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem were forced to flee, and the remnant of the Hebron Jewish community was evacuated as well. > > The Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony. The Yishuv (Jewish community) responded with both defensive measures, and with random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets, perpetrated by the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi or “Etsel,”). Etsel was the military underground of the right-wing dissident “revisionist group” headed first by Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky, who seceded from the Zionist movement, and later by Menachem Begin. The Peel commission of 1937 recommended partitioning Palestine into a small Jewish state and a large Arab one. The commission’s recommendations also included voluntary transfer of Arabs and Jews to separate the populations. The Jewish leadership considered the plan but the Palestinian and Arab leadership, including King Saud of Saudi Arabia , rejected partition and demanded that the British curtail Jewish immigration. Saud said that if the British failed to follow Arab wishes in Palestine, the Arabs would turn against them and side with their enemies. He said that Arabs did not understand the “strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.” > > In response to the riots, the British began limiting immigration and the 1939 White Paper decreed that 15,000 Jews would be allowed to enter Palestine each year for five years. Thereafter, immigration would be subject to Arab approval. At the same time, the British took drastic and often cruel steps to curtail the riots. Husseini fled to Iraq, where he was involved in an Axis-supported coup against the British and then to Nazi Germany, where he subsequently broadcast for the Axis powers, was active in curtailing Jewish immigration from neutral countries and organized SS death squads in Yugoslavia. The British administration of the mandate, in large part, contributed to the Jews’ becoming political opponents of the British, as the British had caved to Arab demands and prohibited Jewish immigration while Jews were being butchered by the Nazis. > [@](#): > > The Biltmore Declaration - Reports of Nazi atrocities became increasingly frequent and vivid. Despite the desperate need to find a haven for refugees, the doors of Palestine remained shut to Jewish immigration. The Zionist leadership met in the Biltmore Hotel in New York City in 1942 and declared that it supported the establishment of Palestine as a Jewish Commonwealth. This was not simply a return to the Balfour declaration repudiated by the British White Paper, but rather a restatement of Zionist aims that went beyond the Balfour declaration, and a determination that the British were in principle, an enemy to be fought, rather than an ally. However, the assassination of Lord Moyne led the Haganah to re-evaluate its stance, and it began to crack down on Irgun and Lehi. > [@](#): > > The Season (“Sezon”) - The Jewish Agency and Zionist Executive believed that British and world reaction to the assassination of Lord Moyne could jeopardize cooperation after the war, that had been hinted at by the British, and might endanger the Jewish Yishuv if they came to be perceived as enemies of Britain and the allies. Therefore they embarked on a campaign against the Lehi and Irgun, known in Hebrew as the “Sezon” (“Season”). Members of the underground were to be ostracized. Leaders were caught by the Haganah, interrogated and sometimes tortured, and about a thousand persons were turned over to the British. It was during the Mandate that the Partition was introduced. > [@](#): > > The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181), owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman. Many factors contributed to Truman’s decision to support partition, including domestic politics and intense Zionist lobbying, no doubt. Truman wrote in his diary, however, “I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell.” > > The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders (see map at right and see Partition Map and detailed partition map of UNSCOP Proposal and final map: UN Palestine Partition Plan Map - 1947). The intention was an economic union between the two states with open borders. At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was “crown lands” belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency. There were about 600,000 Jews in Palestine, almost all living in the areas allotted to the Jewish state or in the internationalized zone of Jerusalem, and about 1.2 million Arabs. The allocation of land by Resolution 181 was intended to produce two areas with Jewish and Arab majorities respectively. Jerusalem and environs were to be internationalized. The relatively large Jewish population of Jerusalem and the surroundings, about 100,000, were geographically cut off from the rest of the Jewish state, separated by a relatively large area, the “corridor,” allotted to the Palestinian state. The corridor included the populous Arab towns of Lod and Ramla and the smaller towns of Qoloniyeh, Emaus, Qastel and others that guarded the road to Jerusalem. (Click for Large Detailed Map) I already pointed out in my previous post that the Palesitnian political leadership’s goal was genocide and that the Arab League shared this goal. > [@](#): > > It soon became evident that the scheme could not work. Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other. The UN was unwilling and unable to force implementation of the internationalization of Jerusalem. The Arab League, at the instigation of Haj Amin Al-Husseini, declared a war to rid Palestine of the Jews. A note on terminology by the way. The Mufti’s nme is sometimes given as Haj, sometimes Mohamad. It’s due to cultural conventions. The most accurate nomenclature would probably be Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. Also during the Mandate period, Al-Husseini was known for the use of Arab ‘irregulars’. > [@](#): > > Pre-Independence - During the period before Israeli independence was declared, two armies of Arab irregular volunteers, let by Haj Amin El Husseini in the Jerusalem area, and by Fawzi El Kaukji in the Galilee, placed their fighters in Arab towns and conducted various aggressive operations against the Jewish towns and village under the eyes of the British. Kaukji and his irregulars were allowed into Palestine from Syria by the British, with the agreement that he would not engage in military actions, but he soon broke the agreement and attacked across the Galilee. The Arab irregulars were met by the Zionist underground army, the Haganah, and by the underground groups of the “dissident” factions, Irgun and Lehi. > > In Jerusalem, Arab riots broke out on November 30 and December 1 1947. Palestinian irregulars cut off the supply of food, water and fuel to Jerusalem during a long siege that began in late 1947. Fighting and violence broke out immediately throughout the country, including ambushes of transportation, the Jerusalem blockade, riots such as the Haifa refinery riots, and massacres that took place at Gush Etzion (by Palestinians) and in Deir Yassin (by Jews). Arab Palestinians began leaving their towns and villages to escape the fighting. Notably, most of the Arab population of Haifa left in March and April of 1948, despite pleas by both Jewish and British officials to stay. > > The British did little to stop the fighting, but the scale of hostilities was limited by lack of arms and trained soldiers on both sides. Initially, the Palestinians had a clear advantage, and a Haganah intelligence report of March, 1948 indicated that the situation was critical, especially in the Jerusalem area. It is generally agreed that April 1948 marked a turning point in the fighting before the invasion by Arab armies, in favor of the initially outnumbered and outgunned Jewish forces. To break the siege of Jerusalem, the Haganah prematurely activated “Plan Dalet” - a plan prepared for general defense that was supposed to have been implemented when the British had left. It required use of regular armed forces and army tactics, fighting in the open, rather than as an underground. It also envisioned the “temporary” evacuation of Arab civilians from towns in certain strategic areas, such as the Jerusalem corridor. This provision has been cited as evidence that the Zionists planned for the exodus and expulsion of Arab civilians in advance. > > The Haganah mounted its first full scale operation, Operation Nahshon, using 1,500 troops. It attacked the Arab villages of Qoloniyah and Qastel, occupied by Arab irregular forces after the villagers had fled, on the road to Jerusalem and temporarily broke the siege, allowing convoys of supplies to reach the city. Qastel fell on April 8, and the key Palestinian military commander, Abdel Khader Al-Husseini was killed there. Qoloniyeh fell on April 11. In the north, Fawzi El-Kaukji’s “Salvation Army” was beaten back at the battle of Mishmar Haemeq on April 12, 1948. These successes helped convince US President Truman that the Jews would not be overrun by Arab forces, and he abandoned the trusteeship proposal that the US had put before the UN earlier. Following attacks by Arab irregulars, the Irgun attacked the Arab town of Jaffa, just south of Tel Aviv. Palestinians fled en masse despite the pleas of the British to remain. In fact, the British withdrawal from the Mandate occurred roughly at the exact time as the declaration of independence of the state of Israel. It was the British act of relinquishing their Mandate over the area which allowed for the declaration of independence in the first place. And, in part the end of the Mandate shaped how the conflict played out, including the fact that a Palestinian state was, in part, not established due to the actions of Egypt and Jordan. > [@](#): > > On May 14, 1948, the Jews proclaimed the independent State of Israel, and the British withdrew from Palestine. In the following days and weeks, neighboring Arab nations invaded Palestine and Israel (click here for map). The fighting was conducted in several brief periods, punctuated by cease fire agreements ( truces were declared June 11 to July 8, 1948 and July 19- October 15, 1948). > > In the initial stage, notable successes were scored by the Egyptian and Syrian armies. In particular, the Egyptians, backed by tanks, artillery, armor and aircraft, which Israel did not have, were able to cut off the entire Negev and to occupy parts of the land that had been allocated to the Jewish state. In his book, “In the Fields of Phillistia,” Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery recounts how the Egyptian army attempted a massed armored strike against Tel Aviv. Palestinian attempts to set up a real state were blocked by Egypt and Jordan. Jordan kept to its agreement not to invade areas allocated to the Jewish state, but Syria and Egypt did not. The strike was turned back by a few recently arrived Messerchmitt aircraft, bought from Czechoslovakia. The Syrians made some advances into the territory that had been allotted to the Palestinian state. In any case, as I hope is clear, talking about the 1948 war without discussing the Mandate strips the discussion of much of its factual content and historical context. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/188 "2009-01-25T20:01:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And we’re at a new quantum stage for absurdity. > I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that you knew the difference between a missile and a rocket (you don’t), that you’d heard that Hamas had been using missiles like the Grad (you din’t) or that an anecdote might job your memory (it didn’t). The irony, it burns. It’s quite funny that you talk of fighting ignorance as to the differance between a rocket and a missile, when you don’t know either. Hint: [the Grad is a rocket, not a missile.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/bm-21.htm) ---
**Author:** ![advanced\_lamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e495f1/32.png) [@advanced\_lamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/advanced_lamer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/189 "2009-01-25T20:05:16Z")
> [@Wildfire\_MM](#): > > The mail was sent from the Norwegian embassy in Saudi-Arabia > > The pictures are here: > [MwcNews.net - Actualités et informations en France et dans le monde](http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27972/264/) > > A fair comparison ? Cheap manipulation designed for people with little historical knowledge. This one is most striking example: [http://mwcnews.net/images/stories/MWC/art/3/image025.jpg](http://mwcnews.net/images/stories/MWC/art/3/image025.jpg) Left pic is cut. Here is a full version: [http://www.kawvalley.k12.ks.us/schools/rjh/marneyg/05\_holocaust-projects/05\_buhler\_einsatz-pic2.jpg](http://www.kawvalley.k12.ks.us/schools/rjh/marneyg/05_holocaust-projects/05_buhler_einsatz-pic2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/190 "2009-01-25T21:02:05Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s quite funny that you talk of fighting ignorance as to the differance between a rocket and a missile, when you don’t know either. I cited and quoted the difference between a rocket and a missile. If you want to argue that I don’t know the difference, that’s your call. You are correct, however, that I mis-identified the Grad as a missile when it is in fact a rocket. I should have used Hamas anti-aircraft missiles, for instance, as an example. Ah well. I said I know the difference between a missile and a rocket not that I’m infallible and that I remember every munition’s designation. It’s rather disingenuous of you to claim that because I mistakenly identified one particular weapon in specific as a missile that I don’t know the difference in general… especially considering that I have now explained and quoted the difference several times. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/191 "2009-01-25T21:18:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re right Gonzo. I bet that the Nazis and Israelis also both _breathed air_. > Obviously it’s a valid comparison. You’ve convinced me. Israelis are Nazis. Terrible response. p.s No body could convince you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/192 "2009-01-25T21:20:50Z")
No Gonzo, I’m sure you could convince me that Israelis are Nazis. You just need to keep trying. Don’t give up. That would be bad. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/193 "2009-01-25T21:40:55Z")
Although, to be fair, in mocking your posts I should make clear that you weren’t claiming that Israelis are Nazis, merely that the defensive conduct sanctioned by the Geneva convention and with no genocidal goals at all had any significant parallels to the Nazis conduct. You just want to demonize legitimate self defense as sanctioned by international law as Nazi-like practices. As I’d hope was obvious, I was mocking your silly comparison using hyperbole. I wasn’t engaging in the sort of argument whereby if one posts facts about the alliance between Palestinian/Arab leaders and the Nazis and their mutual plans for genocide in the Middle East, that one must be saying all Arabs = Nazis and be operating on an evil agenda of, er, facts. And those facts must be opposed lest someone learn something and come to a more balanced understanding of the context and causes of the situation due to the evil of historical knowledge. Just so there’s no confusion. You can resume talking about why the 4th Geneva Convention is a Nazi-esque document if you really want. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/194 "2009-01-25T21:49:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I already pointed out in my previous post that the Palesitnian political leadership’s goal was genocide and that the Arab League shared this goal. I think it’s interesting that you read “Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other.” as “those evil Arabs hated the Jews”. Both groups wanted the other out, by force if necessary. Aggressive fundies and genocidal terrorists existed on both sides of the fence. Or was Lehi a peacenik organization ? Were the Irgun girl scouts ? It’s also amusing that you paint Syrian and Iraqi alliances with Nazi Germany as proof of the inherent evil of all Arabs, when during the 30s and 40s Zionist organisations were in talks with the German regime and the SS to solve the “Jewish question” by relocating Jews to Israel, and offered alliance provided the Germans helped against the British and Arabs. Strange bedfellows to be sure, but that’s politics for you. You can’t paint either side all white or all black. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/195 "2009-01-25T22:25:29Z")
It’s also quite dishonest to portray Al-Husseini as a proeminent leader, or that his anti-semitic views were shared by the Arab League. He was a kook who led a band of kooks about a 100 strong. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#cite_ref-54): > [@](#): > > At the beginning of 1948 al-Husayni was in exile in Egypt. The mufti was involved in some of the high level negotiations between Arab leaders, at a meeting held in Damascus in February 1948 to organize Palestinian Field Commands; however, the commanders of his Holy War Army, Hasan Salama and Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, were allocated only the Lydda district and Jerusalem. This decision > > ``` > "paved the way for an undermining of the Mufti's position among the Arab States. On 9 February, only four days after the Damascus meeting, a severe blow was suffered by the Mufti at the Arab League session in Cairo [where his demands for] the appointment of a Palestinian to the General Staff of the League, the formation of a Palestinian Provisional Government, the transfer of authority to local National Committees in areas evacuated by the British, a loan for administration in Palestine and appropriation of large sums to the Arab Higher Executive for Palestinians entitled to war damages [were all rejected]."[55] > > ``` > > The Arab League blocked recruitment to the mufti’s forces,[56] which collapsed following the death of his most charismatic commander, his cousin, Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, on 8 April. > [@](#): > > [King] Abdullah [of Jordan] regarded the attempt to revive the mufti’s Holy War Army as a challenge to his authority and on 3 October his Minister of Defence ordered all armed bodies operating in the areas controlled by the Arab Legion to be disbanded. Glubb Pasha carried out the order ruthlessly and efficiently Yup, the Arab league totally shared his goals. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/196 "2009-01-25T22:43:20Z")
Simply to point out what you’re doing (God, I wish you’d stop this shit, who do you think you’re fooling anyway?), you’re making that up. You ignored the content of hundreds of lines of text I cited in order to quote only one about mutual antagonism that had developed by 1948. It is a massively deceptive argument that deliberately ignores _all_ the evidence I gave of strong anti-Semitic currents in Arab society and among their leadership, and pretends that the support I gave for my claims was really just one phrase about mutual antagonism. You know full well I cited numerous examples of some Arab leaders and/or some Arab citizens were virulently racist against the Jews. Up to and including the fact that the driving force behind Arab Nationalism at the time and the de facto leader of Palestinian politics had an explicit agreement with the Nazis to commit genocide in the Middle East. That you can’t address my actual posts and are instead forced to fabricate non-truths is just par for the course. I’ve never said anywhere that Arabs are evil. And you couldn’t find any such quote, because you made it up. I have not suggested, implied, tacitly argued or hinted via smoke signals that all Arabs are, were, or will be evil. In fact, one of the quotes I posted talked about how Husseini had to murder other Palestinians in order to enforce his will. If all Arabs agreed, why would that have been necessary? And I can’t believe you’re honestly confused about that rather than disingenuously trying to score rhetorical points via a deceptive argument. A good clue as to the utter bankruptcy of your argument should be the fact that you were forced to fabricate my use or implication of the word “all” when in fact I quoted objective facts about the behavior of _some_ Arab leaders and citizens. That there was an Arab-Nazi alliance dedicated to genocide is objective fact. That you won’t address that and instead choose to pretend that someone who notes that fact must be a racist is, also, objective fact. Your threadbare and deceptive argument is the same as someone saying that if anybody states that there was a political alliance between America and Pinochet, that they’re saying that all Americans were evil and loved Pinochet. Your argument, in short, is an attempt to demonize the truth and objective fact. To make them unspeakable and unknown. To bury accurate history with the threat of disingenuously sliming someone with the false-to-facts claim of racism. But of course, you can’t, or even more worrisome, won’t address the objective facts I cited. Instead you sling slime by fictionalizing what actually was said in order to claim I said anything racist, at all. And then you try to equate the Arab-Nazi alliance dedicated to genocide with Jewish attempts to get the Nazis to spare some Jews from its campaign of genocide. Classy. Even your further claims of improper argument on my part are based on the requirement that you have to distort history. The fact that the Arab league put out an statement saying that a “war of extermination” was their goal might be a hint about their goal, regardless of whether or not by 1948 anybody tried to marginalize Husseini. Speaking of which, you’re making shit up shit up when you claim he wasn’t a prominent leader. From your own damn cite: > [@](#): > > In 1922, al-Husayni was elected President of the Supreme Muslim Council which had been created by Samuel in 1921.[31] The Council controlled the Waqf funds, worth annually tens of thousands of pounds[32] and the orphan funds, worth annually about £50,000, as compared to the £600,000 in the Jewish Agency’s annual budget.[33] In addition, he controlled the Islamic courts in Palestine. Among other functions, these courts were entrusted with the power to appoint teachers and preachers. > > The British initially balanced appointments to the Supreme Muslim Council between the Husaynis and their supporters (known as the majlisiya, or council supporters) and the Nashashibis and their allied clans (known as the mu’aridun, the opposition).[34] The mu’aridun, were more disposed to a compromise with the Jews, and indeed had for some years received annual subventions from the Jewish Agency.[35] During most of the period of the British mandate, bickering between these two families seriously undermined any Palestinian unity. In 1936, however, they achieved a measure of concerted policy when all the Palestinian groups joined to create a permanent executive organ known as the Arab Higher Committee under al-Husayni’s chairmanship. Your own fucking cite clearly states that: > [@](#): > > 'The leadership of al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni and the Arab Higher Committee […] had dominated the Palestinian political scene since the 1920s That you point to that leadership waning in 1948 is a pathetic dodge to avoid recognizing the fact of its existence for roughly a quarter of a century. It says a lot that your argument cannot stand on the facts and must be based on creative writing instead. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/197 "2009-01-25T23:09:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I wasn’t engaging in the sort of argument whereby if one posts facts about the alliance between Palestinian/Arab leaders and the Nazis and their mutual plans for genocide in the Middle East, that one must be saying all Arabs = Nazis Sure. Mentioning the “Arab-Nazi genocide” is _extremely_ different from saying Arabs=Nazis. You’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/198 "2009-01-25T23:44:17Z")
> [@](#): > > It is a massively deceptive argument that deliberately ignores all the evidence I gave of strong anti-Semitic currents in Arab society and among their leadership, and pretends that the support I gave for my claims was really just one phrase about mutual antagonism. You know full well I cited numerous examples of some Arab leaders and/or some Arab citizens were virulently racist against the Jews. Up to and including the fact that the driving force behind Arab Nationalism at the time and the de facto leader of Palestinian politics had an explicit agreement with the Nazis to commit genocide in the Middle East. Precisely. What about evidence of anti-arabic currents implied by the term “mutual antagonism” ? Ooops, forgot to cite those. Here, you’re saying “I acknowledged the feelings were mutual, I listed every count of arab nastiness I could find !”. I don’t ignore the evidence, I point out the cherry picking of facts. > [@](#): > > A good clue as to the utter bankruptcy of your argument should be the fact that you were forced to fabricate my use or implication of the word “all” when in fact I quoted objective facts about the behavior of some Arab leaders and citizens. > That there was an Arab-Nazi alliance dedicated to genocide is objective fact. That you won’t address that and instead choose to pretend that someone who notes that fact must be a racist is, also, objective fact. Because of course “some” is totally implied in your “Arab-Nazi alliance” buzzword. The term is not at all an attempt to broadbrush every Arab state in the meme, and you are rightfully indignant that you could be accused of that ! > [@](#): > > Your argument, in short, is an attempt to demonize the truth and objective fact. To make them unspeakable and unknown. To bury accurate history with the threat of disingenuously sliming someone with the false-to-facts claim of racism. How is bringing historical facts you conveniently forgot “demonizing the truth” ? Is mentionning the existence of Zionist terrorism demonizing the truth and burying history ? I didn’t deny anything you stated. You merely forgot to mention the existence of extremism and nationalism on the other side of the fence. Who’s burying history ? Who’s demonizing ? It’s not the first time you’ve accused everyone else of using your tactics. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > But of course, you can’t, or even more worrisome, won’t address the objective facts I cited. Instead you sling slime by fictionalizing what actually was said in order to claim I said anything racist, at all. And then you try to equate the Arab-Nazi alliance dedicated to genocide with Jewish attempts to get the Nazis to spare some Jews from its campaign of genocide. > Classy. Bull. There was no campaign of genocide in the 30s. And the “Arab-Nazi alliance” is a bullshit concept, as has been pointed to you repeatedly already - might as well talk about the European-Nazi alliance, or the Asian-Nazi alliance. > [@](#): > > Even your further claims of improper argument on my part are based on the requirement that you have to distort history. The fact that the Arab league put out an statement saying that a “war of extermination” was their goal might be a hint about their goal, regardless of whether or not by 1948 anybody tried to marginalize Husseini. [Further bull](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations). > [@](#): > > Speaking of which, you’re making shit up shit up when you claim he wasn’t a prominent leader. From your own damn cite: > > That you point to that leadership waning in 1948 is a pathetic dodge to avoid recognizing the fact of its existence for roughly a quarter of a century. In Palestine. In the Arab league. Different levels, see ? You insinuate that the fact there were strong anti-semitic sentiments in Palestine proves the Arab league as a whole is anti-semitic. Well that’s a load of tosh. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/199 "2009-01-26T01:15:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s rather disingenuous of you to claim that because I mistakenly identified one particular weapon in specific as a missile that I don’t know the difference in general… especially considering that I have now explained and quoted the difference several times. No, what’s disingenuous is you berating someone over their lack of knowledge of the distinction between rockets and missiles as used solely in military nomenclature, and is not even universally used, _particularly with regards to Russian hardware_. What the western military considers a missile, the Russians consider a rocket, guided or not. Here, you can order your own copy of [Soviet Rocket Forces](http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0674708) in which the author > [@](#): > > tells of the mightiest form of Soviet Armed Forces – the Strategic Rocket Forces. The book shows new features and possibilities gained by all armed forces after being equipped with nuclear missile weaponry. Operational-tactical missile weaponry, surface-to-air rockets, antiaircraft rockets, aircraft and ships-rocket carriers are discussed in detail. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298/200 "2009-01-26T01:59:41Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > No, what’s disingenuous is you berating someone over their lack of knowledge of the distinction between rockets and missiles as used solely in military nomenclature, and is not even universally used, _particularly with regards to Russian hardware_. What the western military considers a missile, the Russians consider a rocket, guided or not. Oh, I see, so it’s disingenuous of me, on an American message board where English is the official language, to use American terminology and not allow for Russian terminology. You going to carry that through? After all, if someone said that property was a right, you could point out how very “disingenuous” they were being since communists don’t consider it a right at all. Sorry, no. If you’re speaking English and discussing military matters it’s not “disingenuous” to expect you to use the conventions in English for discussing those military matters. Especially if the distinction is contextually important, like smoke being able to negate the IR tracking of an anti-tank missile spotting scope or laser guidance beams of an anti-tank missile, but not doing jack against an RPG. If we were speaking Russian, you might have a point. We aren’t. You don’t. Kobol: I’ll start with the biggest whopper first. Who the fuck you think you’ll be able to trick is really beyond me. > [@Kobal2](#): > > [Further bull](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations). Indeed, your evasion is bullshit. And indicative of how your argument works. I quoted the fact that the Secretary General of the Arab League stated that the 1948 war would be a “war of extermination”. In order to claim that is false, you produce a politely worded communication to the UN. You didn’t even attempt to rebut the actual claim, you just tried to change the subject and hoped nobody would notice. > [@Kobal2](#): > > What about evidence of anti-arabic currents implied by the term “mutual antagonism” ? Another bit of deception to hide an earlier bit of deception. Houses of cards suck. Your argument’s original bit of deception was that I “read “Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other.” as “those evil Arabs hated the Jews”.” You used that bid of deception to avoid acknowledging the fact my argument clearly stated that the Palestinian leadership’s goal and the Arab League’s goal was the genocide of the Jews. You then went on to equate “aggressive fundies and genocidal terrorists” with the official position of the Palestinian leadership and the Arab League, obfuscating and drawing a bogus equivalency with all your might. At no point did I claim that because there was mutual antagonism, that the Arabs were evil or all hated the Jews. Which, of course, was your original smear. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t ignore the evidence, I point out the cherry picking of facts. When I pointed out that the Palestinian leadership and Arab league were committed to genocide, you responded by saying that I didn’t base that claim off of the facts of the matter, but off of a reading of “mutual antagonism”. That means, quite simply, that you denied all the evidence I put forward by dishonestly pretending that my evidence was a single phrase about “mutual antagonism” and how that made all Arabs evil. And your claim of ‘cherry picking’ is also deceptive. I specifically quoted facts about Irgun’s terrorism. Why make this shit up when the thread falsifies your fiction? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Because of course “some” is totally implied in your “Arab-Nazi alliance” buzzword. > [@](#): > > the Nazis had forged an alliance with Arab nationalists who wanted to drive the Jewish refugees out of Palestine – a murderous version of German-Arab friendship founded on common hatred of Jews. > […] > “Those fighting Jewry can always rely on the sympathy of the Arab population,” the German army general staff wrote in an information booklet to prepare troops for the conquest of Palestine. You show me the individual nation that the pan-Arab nationalism movement resided in, and I’ll change my statement. Other than that, you just have bullshit about fictional racism because you can’t actually present a cogent argument in rebuttal. Reminds me of the old joke. Q: what do you call someone who has just eviscerated your argument with facts? A: you call him a racist! Of course it would also be accurate to point out that within the context of the greater Arab nationalist alliance with the Nazis, there was a Palestinian-Nazi alliance, but I can’t even imagine the bullshit charges of racism that would cause you to spew. I’d be willing to bet that the bit evasion you’d use at that point was that it wasn’t a Palestinian-Nazi alliance either, because it was their leadership that made the alliance and if we don’t demonize the truth, then all Palestinians=Nazis,or some such rubbish. Of course, native speakers of the English language aren’t confused by these points. We know that when someone talks about the American-British alliance during WWII, that they’re not stating that Brits=Ameicans or that Brits and Americans are fungible. Or that when someone states that there was an American alliance with Pinochet, that they’re not saying all Americans loved Pinoceht and supported his evil. Native English speakers understand that when two governments are in alliance, that as a shorthand we can say that two nations are in alliance without meaning that all of the people therein support it. And something tells me that you wouldn’t honestly be up in arms about how Brit=American if someone talked about the British-American alliance. But in Double Standard Theater, maximum outrage over faux racism must be maintained. > [@Kobal2](#): > > You merely forgot to mention the existence of extremism and nationalism on the other side of the fence. I specifically provided quoted some facts about Zionist terrorism. Anybody can go back and read the relevant post and find them. Your argument isn’t even _good_ at being deceptive. All anybody would have to do to see that you’re again making shit up is hit control -F and enter “random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets.” They’d find my post. Who do you think you’re going to be able to trick? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Bull. There was no campaign of genocide in the 30s. Yet more deception. To begin with, your own words were “30’s and 40’s” Now, conveniently, it’s only the 30’s. As early as the publication of Mein Kampf, Hitler made clear that his inspiration for his plans included men like Karl Leuger. Men who continually referred to Jews as a “disease”. Even an argument as intellectually dishonest as your should make note of what one does to treat a disease. As early as 1939, Hitler stated that the Jews would be destroyed if they ‘caused another war’ for Germany. World War II started in 1939, and it was clear to many that it was coming before it actually happened. Again, even an argument like yours should be able to recognize what Hitler’s promise to ‘destroy the Jews if they start another war for Germany’ meant once it was clear that war was inevitable. It was also clear to many others what was happening with the Jews long before WWII started. Your claim that those Zionists who tried to get Jews out of Germany weren’t doing it in large part to protect them from the Nazis, simply because Hitler had merely made clear his vicious and violent racism and not yet implemented it in the 30’s, is laughable. And the fact remains that you tried to paint a Jewish attempt to spare Jews from Nazi butchery as somehow equivalent to the Arab nationalists’ alliance with the Nazis to butcher the Jews. > [@Kobal2](#): > > In Palestine. In the Arab league. Different levels, see ? I do indeed see the deception. Your original claim was that it was "quite dishonest to portray Al-Husseini as a proeminent(sic) leader, or that his anti-semitic views were shared by the Arab League. " When it was proven that your argument was full of shit and he was indeed a prominent leader, you’re now trying to change the subject and argue that he wasn’t a prominent leader in the Arab League. Luckily, your claim was simply that he wasn’t a prominent leader, period. Your absurd distortion went even further and you claim that the man who had dominated the Palestinian political scene for nearly a quarter of a century was a powerless kook. If I said something as absurd and didn’t have an argument that was intellectually honest enough to retract it, I’d try to change the subject too. And, of course, as already demonstrated the Arab League did indeed share that anti-Semitism, as they declared that the war would be one of extermination. I guess you could argue that wanting to exterminate the Jews in a region isn’t anti-Semitic. Wouldn’t surprise me if you tried. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compare-pictures-from-holocaust-with-gaza-pictures-in-a-mail/482298.md?page=11)