# Comparison: Tucson vs Ft Hood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220 "2011-01-11T15:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/61 "2011-01-13T12:39:14Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So does going on a killing spree, by definition, mean you’re crazy? Seems to be that way from what most people write. There’s an argument to made that you have to be crazy to do that. But it’s not just because he shot a bunch of people, it’s based on his writings and his other behavior. > [@Susanann](#): > > Making death threats, multiple death threats, are serious crimes that can put you in prison or a mental institution for a very long time. He did not make any death threats that I’ve seen. I don’t know where you are getting that. He did say some things that scared people or made them feel unsafe, but that does make them death threats. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/62 "2011-01-13T13:20:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well “moral” is a nice nebulous word. But there is a difference between religion when it comes to a propensity for violence in the name of that religion. I’ll prove the point in a way that even you’ll be able to see it. > > A. Islam > B. Quakerism > > Which group has a higher incidence of violence? You might almost have a point, if you had not screwed it up with false equivalence. The correct comparison would be: A. Wahhabists B. Sufis or A. The Order, (Christian Identity Movement) B. Quakers If you start with Islam, you have to use Christianity, and then you find that “propensity of violence” is fairly constant between them. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/63 "2011-01-13T15:46:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s an argument to made that you have to be crazy to do that. But it’s not just because he shot a bunch of people, it’s based on his writings and his other behavior. The key word is “insane” – which has a very specific legal definition, i.e. whether or not the individual knew the difference between right and wrong, at the time of the attack. Even so, the Insanity Defense bears an extremely high standard of proof, and when it comes to _shooting an elected official_, it boils down to a choice of the miscreant spending the rest of his natural life either in prison, or a mental institution. The mere fact that Loughner wrote “I planned ahead” and locked the note in his safe pretty much throws legal insanity out the window – but in layman’s terms, yeah, I think we can all agree that his motherfucking asshole (can I say that in GD?) was totally, absolutely bonkers. As for the Fort Hood guy – well, he’d already spent several tours in Afghanistan, and the U.S. Army was about to force him into yet another rendition. Nobody could have foreseen Nidal Hasan’s ultimate reaction, but looking back in hindsight (heh) it’s clear that while Hasan was indeed crazy, the “crazy” was _forced_ upon him. ☹ > [@Marley23](#): > > He did not make any death threats that I’ve seen. I don’t know where you are getting that. Making public death threats of ANY kind will get you flagged for a very, very long time. Which is what makes Loughner’s actions so freaking scary – NOBODY knew what he was planning to do. He flew under the radar of everyone, including his friends & family and the cop who pulled him over on Saturday morning, and nobody was aware of his intent until he pulled the trigger. He’s 's a bonafide lone nutjob, the most dangerous X-factor of all – but living in a society which values freedom & privacy (or the illusion thereof) means you can’t predict or prevent these _extremely rare_ individuals from going beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/64 "2011-01-13T15:55:31Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > The mere fact that Loughner wrote “I planned ahead” and locked the note in his safe pretty much throws legal insanity out the window And deliberately so, since I don’t think he expected to survive. I think he wanted people to know this was not random. > [@](#): > > motherfucking asshole (can I say that in GD?) Yes, as long as you’re not talking about people who post here. > [@](#): > > As for the Fort Hood guy – well, he’d already spent several tours in Afghanistan, and the U.S. Army was about to force him into yet another rendition. No, he had not. He never served overseas. He was going to be deployed overseas and evidently had a very big problem with the idea of serving in a Muslim country, since he was one himself. > [@](#): > > looking back in hindsight (heh) it’s clear that while Hasan was indeed crazy, the “crazy” was _forced_ upon him. ☹ I don’t think that’s so clear. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/65 "2011-01-13T15:59:16Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > There have been some reports that he had threatened other people. Those same reports say that the sheriff did not do his job and did not take him to jail. There are also “reports” that Glenn Beck killed a girl in the 80s, but he is not in jail either despite being clearly insane as well. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/66 "2011-01-13T16:18:30Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > There are also “reports” that Glenn Beck killed a girl in the 80s, but he is not in jail either despite being clearly insane as well. Cite for this? No, seriously…I’d like to know if this is an actual conspiracy theory, even if it’s (clearly) pure bunk. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, he had not. He never served overseas. He was going to be deployed overseas and evidently had a very big problem with the idea of serving in a Muslim country, since he was one himself. Oops…you are correct, my bad. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think that’s so clear. Clear as mud… The “root causes” of both Incidents, as always, are a matter of perspective and debate; but in the end, that part doesn’t matter. Both Hasan and Lougher murdered people, which automatically makes them accountable for any justice (not karma – JUSTICE) to follow. The buck stops there – as it always should. Thoughts & intent won’t put someone in jail (for the most part) but once you _commit a criminal act_ which can’t be reversed or ignored, you’re fucked. Plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/67 "2011-01-13T16:46:46Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Cite for this? No, seriously…I’d like to know if this is an actual conspiracy theory, even if it’s (clearly) pure bunk. No, it’s a stupid counter-smear in response to Beck’s propagation of the Birther nonsense. It’s usually 1990, not the '80s. > [@](#): > > The “root causes” of both Incidents, as always, are a matter of perspective and debate Well, yes, of course. But if you were saying Hasan’s craziness was forced upon him by repeated tours in Afghanistan and the prospect of being deployed again, you’re wrong. That’s all I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/68 "2011-01-13T18:34:51Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > As for the Fort Hood guy – well, he’d already spent several tours in Afghanistan, and the U.S. Army was about to force him into yet another rendition. Nobody could have foreseen Nidal Hasan’s ultimate reaction, but looking back in hindsight (heh) it’s clear that while Hasan was indeed crazy, the “crazy” was _forced_ upon him. I don’t know where you dreamed this up from but it is all absolutely false. The guy was at Walter Reed for six years prior to the Ft. Hood assignment and he did and said many things about his “ultimate” intentions in the years leading up to it, including big red flags just days before. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/69 "2011-01-13T18:42:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So does going on a killing spree, by definition, mean you’re crazy? Seems to be that way from what most people write. What about robbing a bank? Serial rape? Mail fraud? Where’s the line here? Not necessarily. Soldiers in combat go on killing sprees, for lack of a better term. That’s a big contributor to making them crazy afterwards, but alas, another topic. What line are you trying to draw? The terminology can get confusing - crazy, insane, irrational, stupid, incoherent, arguably all points on the crazy continuum. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/70 "2011-01-14T01:20:00Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > I don’t know where you dreamed this up from but it is all absolutely false. The guy was at Walter Reed for six years prior to the Ft. Hood assignment and he did and said many things about his “ultimate” intentions in the years leading up to it, including big red flags just days before. Okay, okay, so I made an honest mistake…jeez! :rolleyes: However, the pertinent question is WHY Hasan went psycho. We already know (after the fact) about his psychiatric problems, his devotion to Islam, and his vehement opposition to the Afghanistan War. The U.S. Army knew all this, or at least _should_ have known, before they selected him for an overseas tour of duty – which, by all accounts of people who’ve been there, is akin to being sent to the Sixth Ring of Hell. So…faced with that dastardly destiny, which path would you choose? Nobody can answer that question till you’ve been there, but obviously, Hasan chose an option which would guarantee near-certain execution – PAINLESS execution. He’ll receive three hots and a cot for the rest of his life, until the Feds stick a needle in his arm – but compared to his alternate destiny planned by the U.S. Army, from his perspective it may have seemed like the lesser of two evils. Leaving aside his actual actions (which we can all agree went beyond the pale), I don’t see that kind of choice as psychotic at all – in fact, from his perspective, it likely seemed very logical. Given a choice between painless death or agonizing hell, I’d chose death every single time. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/71 "2011-01-14T02:20:18Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > So…faced with that dastardly destiny, … OK, now you are just blathering on about some preconceived notion that war is hell and irreconcilable philosophies drove Hassan to indiscriminately kill people. Horseshit. With very few exception, our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen serve faithfully with distinction and great personal sacrifice to themselves and their families. Suicide rates are on the rise but still only slightly higher compared to the civilian population overall. Hassan was a cold, calculating terrorist operative. The fact that he decided to take it to the next level only adds crazy to that description. Nothing about the juxtaposition of his religion with U.S. miltary ideals has anything to do with it. He’s just an infidel-hating cock sucking killer. I believe that is about all there is to him psychologically speaking, and any theories to the contrary represent bet-wetting liberal fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/72 "2011-01-14T02:50:46Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > OK, now you are just blathering on about some preconceived notion that war is hell and irreconcilable philosophies drove Hassan to indiscriminately kill people. Are you implying that war is actually made of pink taffy and fluffy kittens? If so, Oliver Stone would like to have a word with you… > [@Nadir](#): > > With very few exception, our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen serve faithfully with distinction and great personal sacrifice to themselves and their families. I have nothing but respect for the American armed forces, especially those who are forced to risk their lives and endure hellish conditions in a phony war based on greedy right-wing economics. Forget about 9/11 – GWB himself has said on record that he doesn’t know where Osama bin Laden is, and _he doesn’t care!_ So my hat goes off to any military person who manages to keep their sense of sanity during that 2001-08 regime…which will take much time to unravel, despite the “good guys” being back in power. Having said that, you can’t deny that American soldiers do occasionally [rape and murder Iraqi children](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5529884) or [throw puppies off a cliff](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=621_1204615429) – which begs the question, did the unnecessary war drive them to do it? Or does the current state of our military attract psychopathic individuals? Think about it. > [@Nadir](#): > > Hassan was a cold, calculating terrorist operative. There’s that T-word again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/73 "2011-01-14T06:18:39Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Are you implying that war is actually made of pink taffy and fluffy kittens? No. Where’d you pull that out of? > [@fuzzypickles](#): > > So my hat goes off to any military person who manages to keep their sense of sanity during that 2001-08 regime… That would be as I mentioned ALL OF THEM, with very few exceptions. Care to explain your theory in light of the fact that hordes of former soldiers are not rampaging through the streets this very minute shooting the place up? :eek: > [@fuzzypickles](#): > > …did the unnecessary war drive them to do it? That war drives people to do really bad things is about as new a concept as the rot in your brain. What drives sniveling weasles to complain on Internet message boards about things they have no empathy with? Nobody really knows for sure, it’s kinda personal, right? > [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Or does the current state of our military attract psychopathic individuals? Think about it. I’m thinking about it… Nope sorry, just another bed-wetting liberal fantasy you dreamed up there, fuzzy. There’s about a million people in our armed services who might take exception to that comment, as well. And you have nothing but the utmost respect… Riiiiiight. :rolleyes: Better get the “good guys” working on that one, before all those psychopaths get out and start more rampages. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/74 "2011-01-14T07:22:51Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Cite for this? No, seriously…I’d like to know if this is an actual conspiracy theory, even if it’s (clearly) pure bunk. I’m just asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/75 "2011-01-14T07:27:12Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > The U.S. Army knew all this, or at least _should_ have known, before they selected him for an overseas tour of duty – which, by all accounts of people who’ve been there, is akin to being sent to the Sixth Ring of Hell. The FBI was aware of some of what he was doing and should have known about the rest. That really should have been enough to get him arrested and then this wouldn’t have happened. But somehow you are still apparently arguing that this happened because the military did wrong by Hasan. That’s not what happened, although they failed to act on signs he was losing his grip. If he objected to U.S. policy he could have left the military. The fact that he didn’t speaks to either insanity or the lack of an ideological motive, or both. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/76 "2011-01-14T08:13:31Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Care to explain your theory in light of the fact that hordes of former soldiers are not rampaging through the streets this very minute shooting the place up? Hmm, let’s see: **Timothy McVeigh** – U.S. Army 1988-92, honorably discharged **Charles Whitman** – U.S. Marines 1959-64, honorably discharged **John Allen Muhammad** – Louisiana Army National Guard 1978-85 **James Oliver Huberty** – ex-security guard **Patrick Henry Sherrill** – U.S. Marines (years of service unavailable), coined the term “going postal” Granted, that’s a very narrow sample, but you catch my drift. > [@Nadir](#): > > Nope sorry, just another bed-wetting liberal fantasy you dreamed up there, fuzzy. Oooh, I’m a liberal, what a mortal insult on this message board. Oh wait…it’s not. :rolleyes: > [@Marley23](#): > > The FBI was aware of some of what he was doing and should have known about the rest. That really should have been enough to get him arrested and then this wouldn’t have happened. C’mon **Marley** , you know as well as I do that the FBI has a file on every one of us. 😉 The authorities simply don’t possess the manpower to babysit every individual who _might_ become a danger to society, because let’s face it, you can’t predict who’s actually going to snap and who’s merely blowing off steam. > [@Marley23](#): > > If he objected to U.S. policy he could have left the military. The fact that he didn’t speaks to either insanity or the lack of an ideological motive, or both. Quit his job? In this economy? Talk about an added stressor… Look, I’m not claiming that Hasan wasn’t freaking nuts. And you’ll get no argument from me that his superiors _should_ have known something was exceptionally wrong with him, but either weren’t paying attention or were too chicken to intervene. Sad fact is…shit happens. Tragedies like this inevitably occur from time to time, and there’s simply no way to completely avoid them – barring the adoption of police state policies where the slightest tic or mumble will get you iced. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/77 "2011-01-14T17:34:51Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Okay, okay, so I made an honest mistake…jeez! Look fuzzy, when you just make stuff up to support your political agenda you really do a disservice to that effort and lose all credibility with me and I suspect most other sensible readers here. I suggest you stop pushing it, pick another battle - maybe a new thread about how the good guys are going to save us from the evil military? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/78 "2011-01-14T17:40:43Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Look fuzzy, when you just make stuff up to support your political agenda you really do a disservice to that effort and lose all credibility with me and I suspect most other sensible readers here. I suggest you stop pushing it, pick another battle - maybe a new thread about how the good guys are going to save us from the evil military? 🙂 Sure, whatever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/79 "2011-01-14T17:41:04Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Granted, that’s a very narrow sample, but you catch my drift. Yes, it’s an extremely narrow sample. How many people have gone in and out of the military in the decades covered by your sample? > [@](#): > > C’mon **Marley** , you know as well as I do that the FBI has a file on every one of us. 😉 The authorities simply don’t possess the manpower to babysit every individual who _might_ become a danger to society, because let’s face it, you can’t predict who’s actually going to snap and who’s merely blowing off steam. Are you serious? Read up a little on Hasan. [He was in touch for a long time with this guy.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1207/Judge-dismisses-bid-to-remove-Anwar-al-Awlaki-from-US-kill-list) He was active on message boards related to radical Islam. And all that was going on while he was in the military. > [@](#): > > Quit his job? In this economy? Talk about an added stressor… Great point. If my choices were being out of work for a while or supporting a war I thought was evil and potentially getting killed, I would have to think _real hard_ about what to do. > [@](#): > > Look, I’m not claiming that Hasan wasn’t freaking nuts. You were arguing his circumstances forced his hand. That’s what I’m objecting to. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220/80 "2011-01-14T17:44:35Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > I’m thinking about it… Nope sorry, just another bed-wetting liberal fantasy you dreamed up there, fuzzy. There’s about a million people in our armed services who might take exception to that comment, as well. Funny how most of the active-duty guys I’m friends with tell me they wish the armed forces would figure out how to get good recruits and weed out the obvious psychos. Funny, indeed. It’s apparent that some (not all) servicemen, especially those who joined in the relatively peaceful mid-late 90s, cannot stomach the idea of actually going to war. It’s equally apparent that some (not all) servicemen are either in the service in order to kill in a socially acceptable context or are pushed into a similar psychopathy by the fact that any war is potentially psychologically crippling–and there are aspects of the current one that make that more likely. Some of those aspects are the ones Hasan cited–religious tension (exacerbated by idiots who think military service in the Middle East is a FINE time to witness fundie Christianity) being one, especially combined with the fact it’s really hard to tell the bad guys from the civilians over there. Bed-wetting liberal fantasy? Yeah, pull the other one, it’s got bells on. On military issues I’m about as pro-military as it’s possible to get without being fascist. I’d love to see a study done on psychopathy in the military but I wonder if it could be done impartially, all I know is that I know at least two guys who joined the Marines–by their own repeated admission–to go kill some “ragheads” and “sand niggers”. I also know two active-duty guys and two retired Marines who want to figure out how to evict them from their beloved Corps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparison-tucson-vs-ft-hood/567220.md?page=5)