# Comparisons to the Civil Rights movement are overused, incorrect, and insulting. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105 "2013-12-11T21:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/1 "2013-12-11T21:25:31Z")
In the recent thread about bakers in Colorado, the very first reply mentioned Rosa Parks, thus joining a trend of bringing up comparisons to the Civil Rights movement for everything from voter ID laws to Food Stamps. This board and others have long rejected frivolous comparisons of minor issues to Hitler and the Nazis. Such comparisons to the Civil Rights period should be rejected as well. They’re insulting to the memory of those who struggled and died for the cause of desegregation, and insulting to the intelligence of everyone. Government in the deep South was directly responsible for countless thousands of violent crimes, sometimes by having the police attack groups of Blacks, sometimes by having police and the Klan and other groups working together, and sometimes by allowing the Klan to do its thing with implicit promise that the government wouldn’t intervene or punish the guilty. They were responsible for numerous bombings and burnings of Black homes, churches, and businesses; attacking civil rights marches with dogs and hoses and the like; and other violent atrocities too many to name. To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/2 "2013-12-11T21:33:09Z")
Gays also face discrimination, harassment and, yes, violent crimes. Gay rights happen to be Civil Rights, too. It’s not a 1:1 comparison but the parallels are much, MUCH closer than when one, say, equates Obamacare with Marxism or attempts at gun legislation with Hitler’s Hitlerdom of Hitlering Hitlers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/3 "2013-12-11T21:33:56Z")
Everybody show some respect - Elizabeth Cady Stanton died so we could have this message board! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/4 "2013-12-11T21:38:40Z")
I think there are two issues here, one that reasonable can disagree on and one that they cannot: 1. Government sanctioned/forced discrimination or segregation. That’s something that should not happen, and there is no “reasonable” argument for it. 2. Discrimination in the private market. While few of us would want to see it happen, I think reasonable people can disagree on whether it should be illegal or not. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/5 "2013-12-11T22:05:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In the recent thread about bakers in Colorado, the very first reply mentioned Rosa Parks, thus joining a trend of bringing up comparisons to the Civil Rights movement for everything from voter ID laws to Food Stamps. This board and others have long rejected frivolous comparisons of minor issues to Hitler and the Nazis. Such comparisons to the Civil Rights period should be rejected as well. They’re insulting to the memory of those who struggled and died for the cause of desegregation, and insulting to the intelligence of everyone. > > Government in the deep South was directly responsible for countless thousands of violent crimes, sometimes by having the police attack groups of Blacks, sometimes by having police and the Klan and other groups working together, and sometimes by allowing the Klan to do its thing with implicit promise that the government wouldn’t intervene or punish the guilty. They were responsible for numerous bombings and burnings of Black homes, churches, and businesses; attacking civil rights marches with dogs and hoses and the like; and other violent atrocities too many to name. To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting. Right there are no comparisons, gays have never been the victims of violent atrocities nor have they ever suffered from discrimination by the government and it’s enforcers… > **[In Latest Atlanta Bombing, 5 Are Injured at a Gay Bar (Published 1997)](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/23/us/in-latest-atlanta-bombing-5-are-injured-at-a-gay-bar.html)** > > Bomb explodes in Atlanta, Ga, on Feb 21, injuring at least five people at gay nightclub called Otherside Lounge, and compelling law-enforcement officials to explore whether a serial bomber is at large; it is fourth such incident in seven months; as... [http://members.tripod.com/andy\_o/blah.html](http://members.tripod.com/andy_o/blah.html) > **[Matthew Shepard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard)** > > Matthew Wayne Shepard (December 1, 1976 – October 12, 1998) was an American student at the University of Wyoming who was beaten, tortured, and left to die near Laramie on October 6, 1998. He was transported by rescuers to Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado, where he died six days later from severe head injuries sustained during the attack. > Suspects Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson were arrested shortly after the attack and charged with first-degree murder following Shepard... > **[The Murder of a Gay Man in Greenwich Village](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-murder-of-a-gay-man-in-greenwich-village)** > > The tragedy of Mark Carson’s death is a reminder that anti-gay bigotry and discrimination still exist everywhere, including in places where such things … > **[Stonewall riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots)** > > The Stonewall riots (also known as the Stonewall uprising, Stonewall rebellion, Stonewall revolution, or simply Stonewall) were a series of spontaneous riots and demonstrations against a police raid that took place in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969, at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of Lower Manhattan in New York City. Although the demonstrations were not the first time American homosexuals fought back against government-sponsored persecution of sexual mino... ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/6 "2013-12-11T22:16:25Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Right there are no comparisons, gays have never been the victims of violent atrocities nor have they ever suffered from discrimination by the government and it’s enforcers… I’m not quite sure what the purpose of your post is; no one has said that gays have never been the victims of violent atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/7 "2013-12-11T22:21:45Z")
It was not in the US, but in the UK don’t forget Alan Turing. Some civil rights demonstrations involved sit ins at private lunch counters. [Greensboro, NC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins) for example. Of course the comparisons can go too far. When I was in high school my chemistry class, pissed off at our teacher, walked out, sat in the hallway, and sang “We Shall Overcome.” We were pretty much all white, middle class and Jewish (and in an honors class) so our appeal to the civil rights movement was pushing it to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/8 "2013-12-11T22:26:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Government … was directly responsible for countless thousands of violent crimes, sometimes by having the police attack groups … They were responsible for numerous bombings and burnings of … homes, churches, and businesses;… and other violent atrocities too many to name. To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting. Sounds an awful lot like the drug war to me. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/9 "2013-12-11T22:26:18Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not quite sure what the purpose of your post is; no one has said that gays have never been the victims of violent atrocities. You are saying comparing gay rights to civil rights is ‘overused, incorrect, and insulting’ and ‘To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting.’ Those are some examples of mass violence against gays. Seeing how gays have face and continue to face many of the same issues as African Americans in the country I fail to see how they are not comparable even by your distorted definition of civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/10 "2013-12-11T22:34:21Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not quite sure what the purpose of your post is; no one has said that gays have never been the victims of violent atrocities. The people complaining about this comparison I’m aware of are anti gay rights. Are there others? You left out the other part of the sentence in your quote. Do I take that to mean that if Southerners refrained from violence and only discriminated through law and refusal of service it would all have been okay? Violent discrimination was rare - nonviolent discrimination happened every day. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/11 "2013-12-11T22:43:26Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting. So, by your definition, something is only a violation of civil rights if it involves “mass violence”? And a call for civil rights is only valid if it is specifically protesting against “mass violence”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/12 "2013-12-11T22:54:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think there are two issues here, one that reasonable can disagree on and one that they cannot: > > 1. Government sanctioned/forced discrimination or segregation. That’s something that should not happen, and there is no “reasonable” argument for it. > > 2. Discrimination in the private market. While few of us would want to see it happen, I think reasonable people can disagree on whether it should be illegal or not. But since the Civil Rights act **does** make the latter form of discrimination illegal, at least when it is race-based, any proposal to do something similar for some other group does **fairly** invite comparison with the CRA, **ITR.** ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/13 "2013-12-11T23:15:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Sounds an awful lot like the drug war to me. I’m no fan of the drug war but what you just did is even stupider than comparing Castro to Hitler. Perhaps you genuinely do believe that Barack Obama is as bad as Theodore Bilbo(if you don’t then you really didn’t understand the implications of what you were saying) but I’d strongly recommend against making such a statement in Harlem, Watts, or Roxbury. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/14 "2013-12-11T23:29:08Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You are saying comparing gay rights to civil rights is ‘overused, incorrect, and insulting’ and ‘To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting.’ > > Those are **some examples of mass violence** against gays. > > Seeing how gays have face and continue to face many of the same issues as African Americans in the country I fail to see how they are not comparable even by your distorted definition of civil rights. Addressing mass violence and your cites… Cite #1 references the bombing of a lesbian bar that was [committed by Eric Robert Rudolph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph). He did cite anti-gay activism as one part of his motivation for the string of bombings of which he was convicted. He was pled guilty and was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences for his crimes. Government did not look the other way. Cite #2 references a bombing in Cape Town, South Africa in 1999. The article cited notes that, at the time, South Africa had the “the world’s most liberal constitution with respect to sexual orientation and it’s about to enact legislation which will allow for asylum of this nature.” This again does not seem to be a matter of government sponsored or endorsed violence. As far as I can tell this bombing remains unsolved, though there were [many bombings](http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/bomb-latest-in-long-line-of-cape-town-blasts-1.43761#.UqjyOCdE994) around Cape Town over a period of time in 1999-2000 and other did not seem to target gays. Cite #3 references the killing of Michael Shepherd. A tragedy, for sure. But not an act of mass violence at all. Whether the attack had anything to do with his sexuality has recently been brought into doubt in a book by [Stephen Jimenez](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/12/stephen-jimenez-matthew-shepard_n_3914707.html) . Cite #4 references a murder of one gay man in New York City. It references other crimes of violence against gay couples in the area. That the accused was promptly arrested and a vigorous investigation has led to charges would seem to argue that government is in no way downplaying this Greenwich Village slaying. Cite #5 references Stonewall from 1969, the only item that seems to relate to government sponsored or condoned violence against gays. Of those cites you mention one act of mass, government sponsored violence against gays which occurred more than 40 years ago out of those 5 cites. That is not to say that anti-gay bigotry is a solved problem. My point is not that there is no violence against gays. There is. There is undoubtedly some that is [committed under the color of law](http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/001/2006/en). But I just don’t believe it is of the scale and scope as the racist inspired violence in the Civil Rights era in the 1950s-60s. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/15 "2013-12-11T23:49:28Z")
Comparisons to the civil rights movement should not be made…unless you’re talking about you know, civil rights. Gay rights are civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/16 "2013-12-11T23:51:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > . . . Hitler’s Hitlerdom of Hitlering Hitlers. I always suspected the Four-H Society of being up to no good. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/17 "2013-12-11T23:57:50Z")
Most black people didn’t have dogs sicced on them. There was the realistic threat of violence, to be sure. But on a day-to-day basis, it was social and economic humiliations that were on the forefront on their minds. We don’t have any images of white women being pushed down the street with firehouse. I don’t think there were very many suffragettes who got the shit beaten out of them or who were assassinated. And yet it’s undeniable women were discriminated against and oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/18 "2013-12-12T00:05:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Comparisons to the civil rights movement should not be made…unless you’re talking about you know, civil rights. Gay rights are civil rights. That’s kinda it right there. Hard to argue with, unless you think being gay is a “lifestyle choice”. I don’t think we have too many people around here who think that. And even then, there’s a strong argument to be made that: so what? So what if people choose to be gay? As long as they’re not hurting anyone else, they should be free to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/19 "2013-12-12T00:28:28Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > My point is not that there is no violence against gays. There is. There is undoubtedly some that is [committed under the color of law](http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/001/2006/en). But I just don’t believe it is of the scale and scope as the racist inspired violence in the Civil Rights era in the 1950s-60s. Homosexuals being rounded up into death camps in Nazi Germany isn’t enough to qualify? Or for something modern, how about the attempt backed by American evangelicals to have homosexuality in Uganda made a capital crime? The most important difference when it comes to civil rights between blacks and homosexuals is that it’s much easier for homosexuals to “pass”. > [@Iggy](#): > > Cite #2 references a bombing in Cape Town, South Africa in 1999. The article cited notes that, at the time, South Africa had the “the world’s most liberal constitution with respect to sexual orientation and it’s about to enact legislation which will allow for asylum of this nature.” So? South Africa is also known as a hotbed of the “[corrective rape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_rape#South_Africa)” of lesbians. > [@](#): > > Corrective rape is not recognized by the South African legal system as a hate crime despite the fact that the South African Constitution states that no person shall be discriminated against based on her social status and identity, including sexual orientation. Crimes based on sexual orientation are not expressly recognized in South Africa; corrective rape reports are not separated from general rape reports. In December 2009, there had been 31 recorded murders of lesbians in South Africa since 1998, but only one had resulted in a conviction. In the last twenty years, attitudes toward homosexuality have become worse in South Africa. > > Corrective rape is on the rise in South Africa. More than 10 lesbians are raped or gang-raped weekly, as estimated by Luleki Sizwe, a South African nonprofit. It is estimated that at least 500 lesbians become victims of corrective rape every year and that 86% of black lesbians in the Western Cape live in fear of being sexually assaulted, as reported by the Triangle Project in 2008.Yet, victims of corrective rape are less likely to report it because of the negative social view of homosexuality. Under-reporting is high for sexually violent crimes, thus the number of corrective rapes are likely higher than what is reported. > > One South African man stated, “Lesbians get raped and killed because it is accepted by our community and by our culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/20 "2013-12-12T00:31:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Comparisons to the civil rights movement should not be made…unless you’re talking about you know, civil rights. Gay rights are civil rights. Beat me to the punch. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105.md?page=2)