# Comparisons to the Civil Rights movement are overused, incorrect, and insulting. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105 "2013-12-11T21:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/141 "2013-12-14T05:23:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Implementing affirmative action, [which hurts Asian American students](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/11/03/elite). Thank you for just obliterating your argument since if you’re right that Affirmative Action is some horrible form of racial discrimination then your claim that private businesses don’t discriminate was absolutely asinine since lots of private businesses have Affirmative Action policies. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/142 "2013-12-14T05:39:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I see it more like this. 60 years ago, if a black man went into the White section of a bus terminal in Mississippi, he could be arrested for doing so–many were. In other words, the power of government and its legal punishments fell on the black man in that situation. In the current situation of a gay couple suing the baker, the power of government and its legal punishment also falls, but it falls on the baker, not on the gay couple. Do you want me to post about transgender women being arrested even in this day and age under “suspicion of prostitution” or “disturbing the peace” when they’re doing things like, oh, shopping at JC Penneys, or driving to work, or sitting on their own front porch? Even ones who have 100% correct gender markers on their IDs? Because I can introduce you to many of the transgender women I work with who have had just that experience. Open your eyes a little wider beyond the LGB. We in the T still receive government harassment. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/143 "2013-12-15T22:37:57Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You are saying comparing gay rights to civil rights is ‘overused, incorrect, and insulting’ and ‘To toss off mindless comparisons with current situations not involving mass violence is insulting.’ I am reading through this thread for the first time. I found this to be the point where someone got confused. The OP did not mention gay rights as one of the comparisons that he found distasteful. Now I’ll read on to see if this was noted and if it got back on track. Either way, this is where it happened. It’s a lesson for other threads where similar things happen. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/144 "2013-12-15T22:57:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The OP did not mention gay rights as one of the comparisons that he found distasteful. The word “gay” doesn’t appear in the original post of the thread, but the OP does refer to “the recent thread about bakers in Colorado”, which would be [Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=709846). The topic was there from the very beginning of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/145 "2013-12-15T23:16:04Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The word “gay” doesn’t appear in the original post of the thread, but the OP does refer to “the recent thread about bakers in Colorado”, which would be [Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=709846). The topic was there from the very beginning of the thread. Hmmm. Okay, maybe it was just me. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/146 "2013-12-15T23:18:11Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Do you want me to post about transgender women being arrested even in this day and age under “suspicion of prostitution” or “disturbing the peace” when they’re doing things like, oh, shopping at JC Penneys, or driving to work, or sitting on their own front porch? Even ones who have 100% correct gender markers on their IDs? I’m curious - what’s a “correct” gender marker for a transgender person? You mean correct as in the biological sex of the person, or the gender he or she identifies with? And how would this matter legally? Just curious. I’m not trying to make any point. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/147 "2013-12-16T00:25:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Imagine we’re in a hypothetical country where Asians are 10% of the population, while 51% of the population wants to see Asians discriminated against. From a political standpoint, it’s a good idea to discriminate against Asians. You get the most votes that way. From a business standpoint, it’s not. Yeah, this is the unsupported assumption on which your later claims rest and subsequently fail. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/148 "2013-12-16T02:23:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No. Private control is much better. > > Imagine we’re in a hypothetical country where Asians are 10% of the population, while 51% of the population wants to see Asians discriminated against. From a political standpoint, it’s a good idea to discriminate against Asians. You get the most votes that way. From a business standpoint, it’s not. Each Asian has some money, and if you’re willing to sell to an Asian, you can make money from them. Even if the 51% would prefer that you discriminate against Asians, it’s unlikely that they’d leave your business en masse. Most people buy from the business that they perceive as having the best products, regardless of whether that business shares their prejudices or lack thereof. But not so in politics. > > That’s the fundamental difference between government and business. It’s been said, “a government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.” Likewise for a government that discriminates against Peter to Paul’s benefit. It doesn’t lose any tax money from Peter, because Peter is forced to pay taxes. But a business that discriminates against Peter to Paul’s benefit loses Peter’s business, because Peter can choose not to shop there. It’s a weak argument. In order for the government to oppress a group, it requires a 51% majority. That’s possible and it has happened historically but it’s not typical. But if you remove the government from the picture and allow businesses to set up their own standards, then any business can choose to oppress a group. It’s a lot more likely you’ll find a few hundred bigots than it is you’ll find millions of them. Most people aren’t bigots. Which is why it’s a good idea to have the government stepping in on this issue. It allows the majority of decent people can tell the bigots to knock their shit off. The only people who get upset are the bigots but that’s okay. Bigots belong in the same class as serial killers and child molesters - people that a normal society should oppress. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/149 "2013-12-16T03:45:47Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Let me rephrase what I’m trying to say here. Businesses are profit-seeking enterprises. It will always be more profitable to serve to Asians rather than not to. Sometimes an individual businessman, if he’s an idiot, might choose to put bigotry above profit and refuse to serve Asians, in which case he hurts his own profits. But the entire nature of business pushes against such occurrences. So, you are demonstrating, again, my earlier observation that you are pretty much unaware of American society north of the mason-Dixon Line and Ohio River prior to 1964. (Or are you going to claim that red-lining (for example) was a government mandated practice?) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/150 "2013-12-16T05:04:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m curious - what’s a “correct” gender marker for a transgender person? You mean correct as in the biological sex of the person, or the gender he or she identifies with? > > And how would this matter legally? > > Just curious. I’m not trying to make any point. The gender they identify with. This matters legally primarily due to personal things, like not being harassed for going to the bathroom, or whatnot. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No. Private control is much better. > > Imagine we’re in a hypothetical country where Asians are 10% of the population, while 51% of the population wants to see Asians discriminated against. From a political standpoint, it’s a good idea to discriminate against Asians. You get the most votes that way. From a business standpoint, it’s not. Chik. Fil. A. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/151 "2013-12-16T05:18:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m curious - what’s a “correct” gender marker for a transgender person? You mean correct as in the biological sex of the person, or the gender he or she identifies with? The gender they present themselves as. > [@](#): > > And how would this matter legally? > > Just curious. I’m not trying to make any point. It makes a difference legally if you are in the women’s room/changing room and someone “makes you” and complains, and the manager freaks and calls the cops, who look at your ID and see an “M”. Depending on the cop and depending on the situation, if you do not have legal civil rights protections in your state the results can range from “maybe you better find another place to shop/eat since this place is not cool” to “come downtown because we’re arresting you for ‘disturbing the peace’ or whatever else we think we can apply.” I’ve even heard of a case where a bar called the cops on a transwoman because she took advantage of a “ladies night” special on well drinks, and they demanded the cops force her to pay the “dude’s rate.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/152 "2013-12-16T13:51:48Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The gender they present themselves as. > It makes a difference legally if you are in the women’s room/changing room and someone “makes you” and complains, and the manager freaks and calls the cops, who look at your ID and see an “M”. Okay, got it now, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/153 "2013-12-16T14:51:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Imagine we’re in a hypothetical country where Asians are 10% of the population, while 51% of the population wants to see Asians discriminated against. From a political standpoint, it’s a good idea to discriminate against Asians. You get the most votes that way. From a business standpoint, it’s not. Each Asian has some money, and if you’re willing to sell to an Asian, you can make money from them. Even if the 51% would prefer that you discriminate against Asians, it’s unlikely that they’d leave your business en masse. Most people buy from the business that they perceive as having the best products, regardless of whether that business shares their prejudices or lack thereof. But not so in politics. This is an almost comical layering of unsupported assumption on top of other unsupported assumptions and irrelevances. Why do you think major businesses spend so much money trying to be good corporate citizens? Is it because it demonstrates that they have a quality product? Or is it because people don’t like buying from people they think are arseholes? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/154 "2013-12-16T14:53:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But I just don’t believe it is of the scale and scope as the racist inspired violence in the Civil Rights era in the 1950s-60s. Invoking “scale ans scope” distinctions on matters of clear binary morality reminds me of the old joke: “Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” “…OK.” “Would you sleep with me for ten dollars?” “What kind of woman do you think I am?!” > [@Voyager](#): > > Do I take that to mean that if Southerners refrained from violence and only discriminated through law and refusal of service it would all have been okay? > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Uh, no. I certainly don’t recall saying any such thing. Well, then, refresh your memory by reading the OP, in which you explicitly set forth “mass violence” as the touchstone criterion. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/155 "2013-12-16T15:04:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Prior to the Civil Rights movement, for almost all of American history, Blacks faced severe discrimination from the federal government as well as state governments. Instances by the federal Agriculture Dept. alone are sufficient to fill books. Prior to the Civil Rights movement, there was no knowing how a free market would treat black customers, since business people had reason to be constantly afraid of race-based violence both by the government and by mobs with implicit government permission. That sort of situation is not a free market. Why, such a market is so broken that a good Scotsman can’t even buy sugar to put on his porridge! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/156 "2013-12-16T16:28:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, that can’t be right. After all, conservatives are insisting this has nothing to do with racism. They claim on and on that the only reason they oppose civil rights is because they object to the idea of the government interfering with the rights of business owners. > > So surely these staunch defenders of business owner rights would have been up in arms if Alabama had enacted a law interfering with the way bus companies ran their business. These conservatives would have been out there demanding that the government back down and allow bus companies to seat whoever they wanted to. For them to have stood by and not protested would have revealed all their later complaints to be nothing but rank hypocrisy. Some (circa 1964) folks probably did feel that way, that while they weren’t advocates of racial equality, they wanted the option to, say, serve whites and blacks in the same dining hall, especially if they were in a city with relatively peaceful race relations, but subject to state segregation laws. But, evidently they were greatly outnumbered by those who wanted the government to enforce a racial caste system. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Okay, enough. Some southern governments (like Montgomery) enacted laws requiring segregation. Some southern governments did not. Some (like Baton Rouge) even enacted local laws _prohibiting_ some forms of segregation. But the result was always the same: blacks were segregated into second class facilities. It happened even in cases where the law might prohibit it because local whites just ignored anti-segregation laws. Segregation continued until the federal government stepped in and forced local communities to integrate. This highlights the important role of the state: both passing and enforcing segregation laws, and passing but _not_ enforcing anti-segregation laws, are a manifestation of state power. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Which was, of course, completely legal. The Constitution says so: _No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States_ and _nor shall any State deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws_ and _The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article_. So this is not a state rights issue; the states lost that right in 1868 and a state trying to enact segregation is illegal. The counter to that would presumably be the argument that separate-but-equal facilities didn’t comprise an abridgement of privileges or unequal protection under the law. But, the Southern power structure couldn’t even be bothered to make the facilities remotely equal; their own cheapness and malice undermined the separate-but-equal argument. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/157 "2013-12-16T17:17:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This highlights the important role of the state: both passing and enforcing segregation laws, and passing but _not_ enforcing anti-segregation laws, are a manifestation of state power. This is based on the mistaken notion that the “state” is some alien thing imposed upon us. The state is us; we are the government. The government is just a tool used by the people to do the things they collectively want to do. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > The counter to that would presumably be the argument that separate-but-equal facilities didn’t comprise an abridgement of privileges or unequal protection under the law. But, the Southern power structure couldn’t even be bothered to make the facilities remotely equal; their own cheapness and malice undermined the separate-but-equal argument. Putting aside the issue of the inequality of the facilities in the real world, there’s still a problem with these facilities being separate. Even if you somehow achieved the ideal and creating two sets of facilities that were genuinely equal, their mere existence is supporting the message that black people need to be separated from white people as if black people were somehow unclean and could contaminate white people by contact. The message of black inferiority is inherent in the separation and that fundamental inequality couldn’t be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/158 "2013-12-16T18:17:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is based on the mistaken notion that the “state” is some alien thing imposed upon us. The state is us; we are the government. The government is just a tool used by the people to do the things they collectively want to do. To some degree, unlike a hammer or a car, government is made up of other humans with their own wills. It’s not alien or imposed on us, nor is it us. It’s an institution, and like all institutions, it serves itself as well as those it’s nominally accountable to. Further, agents of the state aren’t chosen by lottery, and they don’t mirror the demographics or attitudes of the population. Further still, by the nature of the electoral process, representation is unequal: supporters of the guy who won are better represented than the fellow who lost. The state is us, but imperfectly so; and even to the extent that the state _is_ us, it’s not you, or me. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Putting aside the issue of the inequality of the facilities in the real world, there’s still a problem with these facilities being separate. Even if you somehow achieved the ideal and creating two sets of facilities that were genuinely equal, their mere existence is supporting the message that black people need to be separated from white people as if black people were somehow unclean and could contaminate white people by contact. The message of black inferiority is inherent in the separation and that fundamental inequality couldn’t be avoided. I agree with that reasoning, but it’s not self-evident by the text of the 14th Amendment, which is all I was addressing. It takes some careful, abstract thought to get there. The fact that the learned minds of the Supreme Court got it wrong at first supports this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/159 "2013-12-16T18:20:22Z")
It only takes “careful, abstract thought” if you accept the proposition that everyone is either white or colored. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/160 "2013-12-16T18:31:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Putting aside the issue of the inequality of the facilities in the real world, there’s still a problem with these facilities being separate. Even if you somehow achieved the ideal and creating two sets of facilities that were genuinely equal, their mere existence is supporting the message that black people need to be separated from white people as if black people were somehow unclean and could contaminate white people by contact. The message of black inferiority is inherent in the separation and that fundamental inequality couldn’t be avoided. Here’s a monkey wrench for ya - does that apply to seperate (but equal) bathroom facilities too, divided by gender? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105.md?page=9)