# Comparisons to the Civil Rights movement are overused, incorrect, and insulting. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105 "2013-12-11T21:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/161 "2013-12-16T18:33:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It only takes “careful, abstract thought” if you accept the proposition that everyone is either white or colored. That was already inherent in the separate-but-equal laws. You know, the “one-drop rule” and all that. The courts couldn’t quite say “separate but equal is okay as long as those who can prove they are of mixed race can use both.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/162 "2013-12-16T18:39:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Here’s a monkey wrench for ya - does that apply to seperate (but equal) bathroom facilities too, divided by gender? Bathrooms split by gender aren’t equal, generally speaking, thanks to urinals. And that’s a difference that’s a fairly direct result of general biology. Where there’s co-gender bathrooms, there generally aren’t urinals, because the purpose of seperation then is to avoid co-gender nudity, I suppose. I guess the response to that would be “Well, those past racists would have said there were direct biological reasons for seperation by skin colour, too”, but I think it’s reasonable to draw a line between actual differences and imagined ones. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/163 "2013-12-16T19:46:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is based on the mistaken notion that the “state” is some alien thing imposed upon us. The state is us; we are the government. The government is just a tool used by the people to do the things they collectively want to do. Awhile ago a FB friend posted something about (and I think he was quoting someone, but I’m not sure whom) how the only way equality ever comes to the South is when federal boots hit Southern soil. At first I was pissed: civil rights leaders from Martin Luther King to my current civil rights idol and high-school friend [Jasmine Beach-Ferrara](http://www.southernequality.org/about/about-us/) have been Southern natives. But then I paid closer attention to what he was saying. He wasn’t saying that southerners never agitate for equality. He was saying that the power structure of the south never listens to their demands until federal boots hit southern soil. In the case of the Civil War and the 1960s and 1970s integration struggles, that was often literal: you needed to have the Union army or the National Guard come down to the south to set things aright. At this point, it may be something as peaceful as a Supreme Court decision that will advance equality in the south. Certainly the federal government is “us” in the sense you say, **Little Nemo** –but there are different levels of “us.” The state of North Carolina is “us” inasmuch as North Carolinians are broadly speaking a bigoted bunch who oppose rights for LGBT folks. State level elections support continuing and where possible strengthening anti-gay legislation. Long before state level attitudes change, LGBT folks are likely to see federal boots on the ground to enforce their rights. And that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/164 "2013-12-16T19:54:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is based on the mistaken notion that the “state” is some alien thing imposed upon us. The state is us; we are the government. The government is just a tool used by the people to do the things they collectively want to do. But our state was created in part to serve things above us, and above the state - our human rights. No tyrannical government may violate them, but no government doing the will of a majority of the people may violate them either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/165 "2013-12-16T22:41:56Z")
The OP seems to have fled the thread. Considering how it was going for him, perhaps this is not surprising, but I’m curious if he learned anything. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/166 "2013-12-16T22:58:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Putting aside the issue of the inequality of the facilities in the real world, there’s still a problem with these facilities being separate. Even if you somehow achieved the ideal and creating two sets of facilities that were genuinely equal, their mere existence is supporting the message that black people need to be separated from white people as if black people were somehow unclean and could contaminate white people by contact. The message of black inferiority is inherent in the separation and that fundamental inequality couldn’t be avoided. > > Here’s a monkey wrench for ya - does that apply to seperate (but equal) bathroom facilities too, divided by gender? No, because as said there are real biological differences; and because _intent matters._ The intent of single gendered bathrooms is to provide privacy from the gender in a situation where both genders want it. _Not_ to oppress one gender. Which is why bathroom gender segregation is the exception to the rule. Racial segregation on the other hand existed for one reason only: to oppress non-whites, especially blacks. Intent matters…and in the case of racial segregation, the intent has _always_ been one of pure malice. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/167 "2013-12-16T23:01:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The OP seems to have fled the thread. Considering how it was going for him, perhaps this is not surprising, but I’m curious if he learned anything. He would appear to have moved on to a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/168 "2013-12-17T00:10:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > To some degree, unlike a hammer or a car, government is made up of other humans with their own wills. > > It’s not alien or imposed on us, nor is it us. It’s an institution, and like all institutions, it serves itself as well as those it’s nominally accountable to. Further, agents of the state aren’t chosen by lottery, and they don’t mirror the demographics or attitudes of the population. Further still, by the nature of the electoral process, representation is unequal: supporters of the guy who won are better represented than the fellow who lost. > > The state is us, but imperfectly so; and even to the extent that the state _is_ us, it’s not you, or me. In general I’m a Lockean rather than a Hobbesian or a Libertarian. I believe that most people are generally good but not all people are good all the time. So morality by majority rule works. It allows the majority of good people to impose their moral standards on the minority of bad people. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/169 "2013-12-17T00:24:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, because as said there are real biological differences; One could say the same for race. > [@](#): > > and because _intent matters._ The intent of single gendered bathrooms is to provide privacy from the gender in a situation where both genders want it. Suppose both races wanted to segregate - would that change things for you? (see below) On the other hand, suppose all men decided they didn’t want separate bathrooms. > [@](#): > > _Not_ to oppress one gender. Which is why bathroom gender segregation is the exception to the rule. > > Racial segregation on the other hand existed for one reason only: to oppress non-whites, especially blacks. Intent matters…and in the case of racial segregation, the intent has _always_ been one of pure malice. I agree, and you did a pretty good job of beating back the devil’s advocate (me). Still, I can think of cases where the bathroom example might be more relevant, for instance, racially-separate clubs, or even schools - what if a group of blacks argued that their club is for blacks only, and both blacks and whites want it that way? Should their club be exempt from racial discrimination laws? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/170 "2013-12-17T00:33:24Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > One could say the same for race. One would be wrong, in this case, unless one was talking about superficial characteristics. Race is a social construct, not a biological one. > [@](#): > > I agree, and you did a pretty good job of beating back the devil’s advocate (me). Still, I can think of cases where the bathroom example might be more relevant, for instance, racially-separate clubs, or even schools - what if a group of blacks argued that their club is for blacks only, and both blacks and whites want it that way? Should their club be exempt from racial discrimination laws? Private clubs already are exempt from discrimination laws. There are plenty of black-only and white-only private clubs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/171 "2013-12-17T01:12:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > One could say the same for race. One can say that frogs can spit lightning, that doesn’t make it true. The fact is that there are major physical differences between the genders; “races” on the other hand are arbitrary social constructs. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Suppose both races wanted to segregate - would that change things for you? Since at that point we’d be talking about some completely different alternate universe, I’d have to know details about this hypothetical world to answer that. But race and gender aren’t really analogous anyway, unless you start bringing in fantasy versions of “race” like orcs and elves. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/172 "2013-12-17T01:36:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One can say that frogs can spit lightning, that doesn’t make it true. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/173 "2013-12-17T03:54:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > One can say that frogs can spit lightning, that doesn’t make it true. > > Damn. Toads, on the other hand, . . . ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/174 "2013-12-17T14:21:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One would be wrong, in this case, unless one was talking about superficial characteristics. Race is a social construct, not a biological one. Yes - superficial characteristics. They are still biological. They shouldn’t matter, but they are real. > [@](#): > > Private clubs already are exempt from discrimination laws. There are plenty of black-only and white-only private clubs. Some are, yes. But that avoids the question of whether they should be - and why they should be different from public accomodations. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/175 "2013-12-17T14:24:33Z")
Something tells me we’re not going to hear back from the OP, but he’s going to continue to claim he was right and true and everybody else was wrong and lying, just like he did earlier in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/176 "2013-12-17T14:28:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One can say that frogs can spit lightning, that doesn’t make it true. Certain kinds of frogs can emit poison. Those frogs tend to have a different skin color too. Fun with analogies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/177 "2013-12-17T14:30:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Some are, yes. But that avoids the question of whether they should be - and why they should be different from public accomodations. Yes, private clubs should be exempt from discrimination laws. People have the right to associate in their private lives with whom they choose, and this is how it should be. This isn’t exactly controversial. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/178 "2013-12-17T14:31:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes - superficial characteristics. They are still biological. They shouldn’t matter, but they are real. Any biological differences in race are not comparable to differences between genders, which is what you compared them to. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/179 "2013-12-20T13:52:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes - superficial characteristics. They are still biological. They shouldn’t matter, but they are real. This shows a misunderstanding of what we mean when we say race is a social construct. While there are biological differences between people, both historically and right up to this moment, “race” has been defined in arbitrary ways. People with wildly differing physical characteristics and genetic backgrounds have been lumped together (Danes and Slavs and Iranians as “white,” Bantu and Khoi-san and Australian Aboriginal as “black,” for some notorious examples). People from different genetic heritage do have minor phenotypical differences, but this has little or nothing to do with how “race” has been used, and the belief that it does is a major part of the reason racist assumptions still exist. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105/180 "2013-12-20T18:29:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any biological differences in race are not comparable to differences between genders, which is what you compared them to. Why not? (I’m not inclined to care about differences between races–I’m more interested in why people justify keeping the significance of the differences between genders). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/comparisons-to-the-civil-rights-movement-are-overused-incorrect-and-insulting/676105.md?page=10)