# Compelling prison doctors to assist in executions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965 "2015-07-01T16:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/21 "2015-07-01T23:04:35Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I’d wager extending them to killing people would be a stretch. You’re probably right. But if you’re wrong, who would you complain to? Also, if my employer rewrites my job description, I can accept it or I can quit. Is your situation any different? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/22 "2015-07-01T23:15:20Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > if my employer rewrites my job description, I can accept it or I can quit. Is your situation any different? Yes, my situation is different. If anyone pulled that sort of change on me, I’d take it up the chain, all the way to the Bureau of Personnel and Human Resources, Secretary of Corrections, and also the state Medical Examining Board. All serve the Governor of the state and all would have an interest in that sort of state job description change. It would even be possible to get the state Legislature involved, or at least aware. I’ve met enough of them coming through the prison on their tours over the years. Not all jobs, especially those of licensed, certified professionals, are subject to ‘do it this way now or quit’ management approaches. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/23 "2015-07-02T02:27:06Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Another worry about killing patients is that it would be habit forming. Some of my patients really need putting down. Not to mention some bosses and co-workers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/24 "2015-07-02T02:33:38Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Yes, my situation is different. If anyone pulled that sort of change on me, I’d take it up the chain, all the way to the Bureau of Personnel and Human Resources, Secretary of Corrections, and also the state Medical Examining Board. All serve the Governor of the state and all would have an interest in that sort of state job description change. You mentioned the state Medical Examining Board. Even if the prison system were about to find a doctor willing to participate in the execution of a prisoner, might not the Medical Board stand in the way? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/25 "2015-07-02T02:59:33Z")
I would think that if the state were going to compel, they could also enact legislation to prevent the medical board from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/26 "2015-07-02T03:02:27Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I would think that if the state were going to compel, they could also enact legislation to prevent the medical board from doing so. now that would be an interesting legal battle!!! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/27 "2015-07-02T03:02:37Z")
True, but executive action is different from legislative action. If the state medical board gets its authority to regulate the medical profession from state law, then to change the rules of medical ethics may require legislative action, not just direction from the executive as employer. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/28 "2015-07-02T05:21:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mentioned the state Medical Examining Board. Even if the prison system were about to find a doctor willing to participate in the execution of a prisoner, might not the Medical Board stand in the way? That’s a good question.\* \*that I asked yesterday in post 10. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/29 "2015-07-02T05:22:08Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > RE: job descriptions. Every one that I have ever read mentioned “Other duties as assigned”. I have no idea how far these “other duties” can be extended. As Qadgop already observed, I think pretty much anyone would agree that ordering an employee to kill somebody stretches far beyond any reasonable definition of “other duties”. > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I’m a little uncomfortable telling someone that their personal beliefs aren’t relative to their job duties simply because I could easily find someone to replace them. > > **Little Nemo** , this would no doubt vary from state to state but I live in an employment at will state and my employer has made it abundantly clear to all employees that we can be terminated for any reason as long as we aren’t being discriminated against as a member of a protected class. Presumably, failure to fulfill an assignment (even one not mentioned specifically on my job description) would fall under this category. Officially, I had the authority to order around medical staff when I was working. Unofficially, it was no secret that the state had an incredibly hard time finding people to fill medical jobs. And if you caused one to quit, you had better have a really good explanation. So you always bent over backwards to not upset any doctors or nurses. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/30 "2015-07-02T08:15:52Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > RE: job descriptions. Every one that I have ever read mentioned “Other duties as assigned”. I have no idea how far these “other duties” can be extended. > > I’m a little uncomfortable telling someone that their personal beliefs aren’t relative to their job duties simply because I could easily find someone to replace them. > > . Every labour/employment law case on this issue I have seen seems to define "other duties as assigned"means thing which are reasonably seen ads being either ancillary or part of the main duties and or which could reasonably be within the persons competence. A teacher chaperoning a student party or a field trip is doing things which are ancillary to hIs/her job. A teacher being asked to learn first aid is doing that as well. A physics teacher who is asked to cover volleyball practice because coach is ill, yes, these are reasonable other duties. Being asked to be casual labourer in the Headmasters house? Not so much. In the same way, I don’t think any court would think it is reasonable to compel a doctor to partake in an execution. OTH, asking **Qadgop the Mercotan** or indeed any other prison doctor to declare a prisoner dead, that would be reasonable (and doctors are expected to do so) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/31 "2015-07-02T11:18:09Z")
Note that the quote you provide is about a physician determining mental competence, and not participating in the direct execution process. If the stigma of participating in an execution were magically removed, the medical community could quite readily create absolutely (physically) painless executions. We render thousands of patients painlessly unconscious every day, almost without error. (As an aside, The AMA’s position is irrelevant to the 80% of physicians who don’t belong, and probably many more.) But most physicians are not comfortable with personally being the ones participating in executions, and it is an easily defensible position that a given physician has no medical expertise wrt to execution. So even though the medical profession in general might be able to develop very good execution protocols, it’s kind of hard to argue that any given physician should therefore be compelled by job description to do executions. Executing people is not a subset of medical training. You wouldn’t expect QtM to be compelled to reattach a retina, just because he is the prison physician. If we want to do executions painlessly using medical protocols, the best approach would be to develop trained teams that can go across political boundaries and carry them out. I seriously doubt you’d get many physicians to want the role, but for what it’s worth, you don’t need them. Not gonna happen, obviously. However, I think the taste for executions is going away anyway (perhaps helped by the pleasure ISIS (and the Nazis before them) takes in them). Executions seem to some people like a great idea, but in practice their real ambivalence is exposed. A bolt pistol to the brainstem is easily the cheapest, least cruel, most efficient method of dispatch. The idea you need a clinician at all arises from the idiotic idea that the most humane execution mirrors general anesthesia. Such an idea in turn derives from our ambivalence that executions are ever OK. “Putting him to sleep” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/32 "2015-07-02T14:38:56Z")
It’s also wholly unnecessary to have doctors to assist in the actual execution. Killing people is drop dead simple. Doesn’t require a medical degree. Using techniques like the electric chair and lethal injection it gets a little more complicated, but it’s still fundamentally a “technicians” job at best, and doesn’t require the sort of training that goes into becoming a doctor. It’s something you can train an existing corrections employee who is willing to work on the death crew on in a few weeks time most likely. Lethal injection is a fairly stupid execution method in any case, and likely wouldn’t be made any better by doctor’s involvement. The underlying issue is there’s not a universal way a human body responds to large doses of the drugs used. Yes, all of them die, but some die easier than others and that causes problems in the convoluted logic that allows us to execute people in America. The stuff that doctors need to do related to the execution process they can do without going against their conscience. For example writing up the death certificate and verifying time of death or et cetera, doctors do that for people killed in all manner of means, moral, amoral, and immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/33 "2015-07-02T14:42:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s a good question.\* > > \*that I asked yesterday in post 10. That you did-sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/34 "2015-07-02T14:43:26Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Note that the quote you provide is about a physician determining mental competence, and not participating in the direct execution process. > > If the stigma of participating in an execution were magically removed, the medical community could quite readily create absolutely (physically) painless executions. We render thousands of patients painlessly unconscious every day, almost without error. I mean this is pretty easy for the **veterinary** community. Not to mention all evidence suggests even a few ancient forms of execution are probably damn near painless. The problem with lethal injection is they created a complex protocol designed to meet a highly specific set of court imposed rules. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/35 "2015-07-02T15:13:16Z")
The problem with lethal injection is that it is not aesthetically displeasing as some of the others are. Long drop hanging is more or less painless. Decapitation with a guillotine is as well.Use of explosives. But all of those are violent and or messy. Makes observers squeamish. Lethal injection? Not so much. That seems to be the reason it is used and not because of its actual “humaneness”. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/36 "2015-07-02T15:59:40Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If the stigma of participating in an execution were magically removed, the medical community could quite readily create absolutely (physically) painless executions. We render thousands of patients painlessly unconscious every day, almost without error. Anyone who can place an IV can perform an execution. No need for a doctor. In fact I rarely see a doctor perform such procedures in a hospital or clinic. At most it’s a nurse. More probably a med-tech. One of the main reasons why it is harder to perform lethal injections than anesthetizing for surgery is because drug companies [don’t want their products used to kill people.](http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-alper-lethal-injection-shortages-20150414-story.html) It is not hard to find someone trained to stick an IV. It is getting harder to find FDA approved drugs for use in executions. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/37 "2015-07-03T21:08:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why can’t the state put out a Help Wanted ad for an medical professional to oversee executions? > > Seems straightforward enough. Post the requirements and that’s it. It is a big world out there, there is probably someone who would do it. Hell, one person could do every single one in the US. We’ve [never topped 100 in a given year since 1976](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year) and more usually are around 50. If every state chipped in to pay that one person it’d be a good deal and relatively cheap for them…even including travel expenses. I’m surprised they haven’t done this and hired someone like Steven Hayne. I’m sure he could even throw-in the autopsies and expert testimony for one flat package fee. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/38 "2015-07-03T23:05:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s also wholly unnecessary to have doctors to assist in the actual execution. Killing people is drop dead simple. And in many prisons (especially supermax) there’s an pool of experienced individuals, ready and willing to serve for minimal pay. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/39 "2015-07-04T00:25:48Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > A commonly held belief over in the [Supreme Court [declines to hear] same sex marriage cases.[plus further developments (Ed.)]](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=736481) is that clerks that refuse to issue licenses to SSM couples should either be fired or resign for failure to perform their duties. I agree with this position. However, should this apply to other government occupations that refuse to participate in lawful activities. I am thinking specifically of doctors assisting in the execution of prisoners although there are probably other examples. > > Given: > > 1. The hippocratic oath (to do no harm) has no force of law > 2. Executions are legal in the US in n (don’t know the actual number) states > 3. Prison doctors are (presumably) government employees > 4. Executions will occur with or without the doctor’s assistance > > Why are they given a pass on not assisting? The wiki article on “Participation of medical professionals in American executions” has a quotation from the AMA that states: > Bolding mine. > > Should we make an exception for doctor’s beliefs as the AMA does? I would argue that we should not. If you do not wish to carry out a lawful instruction from your employer, then you should find another employer. Resting on the “personal belief” pillar is no more appropriate for the medical profession than it is for a clerk. It’s not a bad argument. The issue is they can no find any doctors willing to participate in executions. They can fire doctors all day long for not participating, it’s not going get any to participate and will have rather expensive consequences when they have no doctors left to perform the necessary services they provide. If the reality was that 99 out of a 100 doctors were willing to perform their duties as assigned including executions, I would argue the prisons would be right to fire the 1 that objects if reasonable accommodations can’t be made. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965/40 "2015-07-05T21:57:44Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It’s not a bad argument. The issue is they can no find any doctors willing to participate in executions. They can fire doctors all day long for not participating, it’s not going get any to participate and will have rather expensive consequences when they have no doctors left to perform the necessary services they provide. > > If the reality was that 99 out of a 100 doctors were willing to perform their duties as assigned including executions, I would argue the prisons would be right to fire the 1 that objects if reasonable accommodations can’t be made. So 100% of all doctors are morally opposed to capital punishment? That cannot be accurate. There must be at least ONE doctor in the entire state of, say, Texas that would agree to perform executions. All it would take is the legislature passing a law forbidding the state licensing board from taking adverse action against his or her medical license. Further, if you are going to use the whole “we cannot find any doctors who will do it argument” then don’t be surprised when the county clerk from Backwater County, Ala-sippi says, “Gee, we interviewed 11 people for the position of marriage license issuer, and no qualified person would agree to issue same sex marriage licenses.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/compelling-prison-doctors-to-assist-in-executions/723965.md?page=3)