Perhaps they can commit some other felony & raise enough money to pay a fine for both? :dubious:
Well, there’s an idea, John, we can veer this debate towards the soil quality in Mexico and its economic consequences. That way anyone we haven’t bored to death already we can finish off pretty quickly.
Eh. I didn’t ask for a debate, just a cite. I guess that means you don’t have one.
Anyway, let’s keep in mind that Mexico is not a poor country. Poorer than the US, yes, but it’s economy has a per capita GDP of > $11K. Mexicans come here to make money because it’s relatively easy and the risk is pretty low. It is a gruesome death to die of thirst in the desert, but only a small percentage of illegal immigrants end up dying. Of course, each death is a tragedy, but if the risk were really high, they wouldn’t be doing it. Life in Mexico ain’t that bad. There are somewhere around 6M Mexicans living here illegally-- something like 500K per year coming across. Statistics aren’t that easy to come by, but something like 200-300 died in the desert in 2006, from what I can gather. 300 deaths is horrible, but that’s < .01% of those who enter the country.
You got me John, I really didn’t rigorously pursue issues of soil quality in Mexico, it was just something heard in passing, in reading on the subject. Here’s your gotchaya certificate. Boy, is my face red.
I repeat: Eh. Need I elaborate?
I’m sure we are all grateful for your attention to detail.
Not that it matters, but I read what he said assuming he knew the meaning of “coyote.” The sentence works, I mean.
Anyway, I think the bill is DOA, especially now with various senators trying to add amendments and debate pushed back. The way I see it, the only way they could get this passed (even in the Senate) was to ram it through as fast as possible with no debate and no amendment like Pat Buchanan was up in arms about last Thursday on Scarborough Country.
If we want to let these “illegal” immigrants in, why are we doing it halfway? Why don’t we just change immigration law so they’re NOT illegal? Why beat around the bush and say “okay, you’re breaking the law, but we’re just going to pretend it’s not happening”? Why, then, have the laws in the first place?
That’s disturbing, if true. I would much rather have my older brother living in the same country as me, than risk his life illegally making his way into a foreign country. Maybe my view isn’t reflective of the majority, though.
Ohh, ok. Re-reading your post #14, it makes a little more sense now. You guessed correctly that I was unfamiliar with this use of the word - so, thanks for explaining.
I’m not sure I know what you’re getting at here. I think I have an idea, but I don’t want to jump to any conclusions, so… could you clarify?
Thanks for the vote of confidence, nonetheless. 
I think you’re right. I think the longer this bill sticks around, the more negative attention will be drawn to it. And more amendments to it won’t accomplish much except pile on a few more layers of bureaucracy, IMO.
I have to agree. Even if we were to grant complete amnesty to the immigrants who are currently here illegally, what’s being done to prevent the same situation from occurring another 10 years from now? If we’re just going to grant amnesty every now and again, why even bother with the immigration laws?
LilShieste
Well, as I said, the sentence works either way. Yes, you could get killed in the desert by a hungry coyote. You could also get dumped by a coyote in the middle of the desert with no idea where you are and no supplies. I’m pretty sure that’d get a murder charge if caught. And there are stories of basically that exact thing happening. No cites, I’m afraid. Of course, this whole thing is a hijack anyway.
Something needs to be done about illegal immigration (and immigration in general.) Something needs to be done about Social Security and Medicare. Something needs to be done about a whole lot of things that will never be fixed because they are simply too touchy politically and we can’t have our politicians possibly risking their jobs by making an unpopular but needed decision now, can we?
I completely agree. Bills like this are really just small Band-Aids on a wound requiring several stitches.
LilShieste
"The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him and even the flea would desert him for a velocipede." (old style bicycle)
Not relevant to anything, just love Mark Twain.
You’re talking like the people who are here illegally and the people who are already in line to immigrate legally are two totally different bunches of people; they aren’t. Given how long the quota-induced line is (20+ years in some categories), plenty of people in the line are not willing to spend their time waiting in their home countries (which are not just Mexico, by the way). Let’s be real; the line even for the closest family relationships that are subject to the quotas (spouses and adult children of permanent residents) are more than 5 years long. Would you want to be separated from your spouse for 5 years?
I won’t pretend that I’ve read through the whole bill; even the lawyers I work with haven’t slogged through most of it. What’s the point? they figure - it will probably be uncrecognizable form the current version if and when it ever passes, especially considering how far apart the House and Senate versions were the last time on the merry-go-round.
But I will go on record and predict that if a bill passes that creates a long-term temporary worker category with no path to permanent residence, it simply <i>won’t work.</i> People want and need stability in their lives, or what’s the point of creating a major immigration overhaul in the first place? Just name me a country where a long-term guest worker program has worked well, without creating any kind of long-term social instability or otherwise undesirable sociopolitical consequences. If there is one, I’ve never heard of it.
In the meantime, here’s a very detailed summary of the Senate compromise bill, here’s the White House Q&A, and the White House fact sheet. If I find a shorter summary of the bill that’s worthwhile, I’ll post it, but it is a rather comprehensive bill, so I don’t know how much one can summarize before defeating the purpose.
Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal
[fixed typos]
Eva, I recall reading you on immigration issues in the past, and respect your experience. I would like to further solicit your opinion, if you’re amenable.
Well, ya shoulda: 
Very unevenly distributed, though. According to the above link, Mexico’s richest 35 families (yes, like comes between 34 and 36) have a larger share of the country’s income than the poorest 15 million Mexicans.
Maybe up to a point, but I think the US would still have the advantage in amount and quality of farmland.
What we have now is fiction. On paper, it’s illegal to employ the “undocumented.” In practice, we have 12 million of them working here. Congress has been slowly whittling away the funds and people needed to enforce the law. In other words, we are making laws we have no intention of enforcing. We need these people, but we pretend they are criminals.
We need something in between. At this point in history, I don’t think an ideal balance will be found. What we are pretending to do now, though, is madness.
If you have specific questions, I’ll give it my best shot, though as I mentioned I sure as hell haven’t read the whole thing yet, and it covers a lot of stuff. Also, you see how many typos I missed last night, right? I think I need some sleep.
Do you realize that the “facts” in your link are from 1990? A lot has changed in 17 years. Maybe some things for the better and some for the worse but your data is dated.
One thing that skews comparisons in agricultural is the huge farm subsidies that the large corporate farmers in the USA recieve. Small producers in México just can’t compete. Reducing or eliminating these would be a good way for the US to help alleviate the crisis in Mexican agriculture which would keep many people home on this side of the border.
Does this bill do anything to give employers tools to identify illegal workers? Does it punish those who employ them anyway? If it does not, it will fail, and all the guest worker programs and fences will not stem the irresistable force between jobs on one side of the border and cheap labor on the other.
Read the links I provided above. Employers would be required to verify the employment eligibility of ALL workers via some yet-to-be-created electronic system, and there would be penalties for failure to comply. Whether the law would be enforced better than it is now is anyone’s guess; as has already been mentioned, there are already laws on the books for verifying employment eligibility, but they are a mess and aren’t enforced very well.