# Computer crash loses 2 years of Lois Lerner emails **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 14, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759 "2014-06-14T06:51:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/21 "2014-06-16T18:09:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is the claim that the e-mails were lost due to a crash on Lerner’s own computer or workstation, or is it that they were lost due to a crash of the IRS’s e-mail servers? If the former, it doesn’t explain why the e-mails couldn’t be recovered from the server. If the latter, it does explain that, but doesn’t explain why the server wasn’t fully restored from backup. Either way, regardless of how much trouble Lerner herself is in, it sounds to me like someone in the IRS’s IT department should be getting some heat. I think it may be the former though im not certain. Im a bit of a tech idiot so I dont know much about this stuff. I know that her internal emails were recovered by compiling emails recieved by her colleagues from her. That her external emails are lost. And it seems that these lost emails were sent via her own personal email account, not her IRS email account. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/22 "2014-06-16T18:09:42Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Yeah, that looks bad. No doubt about it. Wish they would have included more technical information on how this could have happened. I believe the technical information goes something like this: > [@IRS official](#): > > Holy Shit! Have you seen these e-mails?! If the Tea Party lawyers get a hold of them, they’ll nail our dicks to the wall! > [@IRS underling](#): > > Don’t worry sir, I’ll tell IT to make sure the e-mails gets lost in a “server crash.” _wink wink_ As others have mentioned, anything else stains credulity. E-mails don’t just disappear like that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/23 "2014-06-16T18:30:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I agree that it is a huge scandal that these groups ever got their tax exempt status approved. The statute is clear that these groups must be working exclusively in the public interest, back in the Eisenhower administration the IRS illegally changed the word “exclusively” to “primarily”. None of these groups, left or right, should have tax exempt status. > > It is not a scandal that Teabagger groups were targeted because liberal groups were not targeted. The only difference is that not all liberal groups were approved for tax exempt status and that liberal groups didn’t whine like a bunch of babies. THe scandal is that the liberal groups were handled at the Cincinnati level and the Tea Party groups had to be sent to DC, where their applications languished. Although this is good for the administration. It’s starting to look more and more like this was the crusade of one woman in the IRS. She was in communication with Justice about these groups. Now a lot of liberals might approve of this, but the problem is that she’s not an elected official or even the appointee of an elected official. That’s a call that gets made way above her pay grade. She was trying to make changes to a longstanding policy regarding these groups entirely on her own, and that’s the very definition of a rogue bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/24 "2014-06-16T18:45:22Z")
A fuller technical explanation here: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/) In short, the servers only kept backups going back six months, and her personal workstation crashed and was unrecoverable. I don’t think that really removes suspicion, but I think it does answer the “that’s technically impossible” brigade in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/25 "2014-06-16T19:25:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A fuller technical explanation here: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/) > > In short, the servers only kept backups going back six months, and her personal workstation crashed and was unrecoverable. > > I don’t think that really removes suspicion, but I think it does answer the “that’s technically impossible” brigade in this thread. Thanks for this link. Its the most detailed explanation I’ve read yet of the technical issues behind this story. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/26 "2014-06-16T19:45:38Z")
It also says the server runs Microsoft Outlook… ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/27 "2014-06-16T20:02:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > He is correct. Corporate emails are stored on a central Exchange (or in some cases Lotus Notes Domino) server. Individuals can ALSO store emails locally on a computer, but destroying those files or even the entire computer doesn’t take them off the central server. > > And typically those servers are backed up. So even if you erase the emails, there is still some old backup somewhere. > > As it happened, I spent 6 years in the “collecting email (and other data) off computers” business. “We can’t find the emails for that particular person for the particular dates your are looking for” is Suspicious Behavior 101. Yeah, it’s a stretch, but I suppose if you did something like had your mail client archive to the local drive daily, and your backup tapes are on a month-long rotation before they’re overwritten, then a dead hard drive might translate into a lot of those emails being gone for good. Nobody does it that way though, and 99% of people just leave every damn email on the server eternally. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/28 "2014-06-16T20:14:01Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > It also says the server runs Microsoft Outlook… Oy! Not impossible, I had experience with managers that do not want to use new stuff, even if Microsoft itself has something new. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/29 "2014-06-16T20:32:41Z")
As much as it stinks of suspicion, I do acknowledge that a poor system design and/or poor backup procedures could result in data loss. Here in Cayman our police department is evaluating how much effort it wants to take to recover files (apparently not emails) that were lost when [the server failed and its backup](http://www.compasscayman.com/caycompass/2014/06/06/Police-backup-drives-also-corrupted-in-computer-crash/) got corrupted. So I hold a slight, slight chance that the Lerner emails were lost on accident. But I fully believe it was a preventable accident had a better backup procedure been designed and followed - server, backup, AND off site backup. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/30 "2014-06-16T20:52:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Nobody does it that way though, and 99% of people just leave every damn email on the server eternally. Until the server sends you a nastygram about how you are exceeding your allowed storage, and need to clear out space or your mail privileges will be suspended. At which point, you create a local archive that is at risk for being lost. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/31 "2014-06-16T21:19:00Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > [It did.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy) > > And those of us who complained were told to suck it up. Shit happens. Was there a Straight Dope thread on this? I’d like to see what **magellan01** and others had to say back then. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/32 "2014-06-16T21:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Richard Parker** : > > In short, the servers only kept backups going back six months, and her personal workstation crashed and was unrecoverable. That still doesn’t really explain it, though. It’s OK to wipe backups older than six months, because old backups aren’t really something that’s particularly useful. The first place to look for these e-mails wouldn’t be in the backups, but in the server itself. The backups only come into play if the server crashes, in which case you immediately restore from the most recent backup that doesn’t have a problem (in the event that the crash was caused by something in software). > [@](#): > > Quoth **Fuzzy\_wuzzy** : > > And it seems that these lost emails were sent via her own personal email account, not her IRS email account. This, on the other hand, might explain things. A personal e-mail provider (depending on which one it is) might not store old e-mails indefinitely, or at least make it easy for the user to delete them from the system. Of course, then we have to ask what the IRS’s policy is for employees using personal e-mail accounts for work-related purposes. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/33 "2014-06-16T21:36:08Z")
E-mails don’t just live in one place though, so the hunt will likely go on. Think about it: [ul] [li]Lois send an e-mail to Sam saying “fuck the righties, no tax exceptions for them!” [\*]She sends it from her “[sexytaxlady@hotmail.com](mailto:sexytaxlady@hotmail.com) account”. [/li][li]Sam is at “[muffdiver6969@yahoo.com](mailto:muffdiver6969@yahoo.com)”[/li][li]Lois realizes she is in trouble, and wipes out her e-mails.[/li][li]First off, hotmail should be able to recover those[/li][li]Secondly, Yahoo has the damn e-mail as well.[/li][/ul] I know that’s not exactly what happened in this case, but the reality is that when you send an e-mail, it lives on in multiple servers and networks in the cloud. The concept of the cloud has been around for decades, and all of your e-mails are out there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/34 "2014-06-16T21:53:55Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > E-mails don’t just live in one place though, so the hunt will likely go on. Think about it: > > [ul] > [li]Lois send an e-mail to Sam saying “fuck the righties, no tax exceptions for them!” [\*]She sends it from her “[sexytaxlady@hotmail.com](mailto:sexytaxlady@hotmail.com) account”. [/li][li]Sam is at “[muffdiver6969@yahoo.com](mailto:muffdiver6969@yahoo.com)”[/li][li]Lois realizes she is in trouble, and wipes out her e-mails.[/li][li]First off, hotmail should be able to recover those[/li][li]Secondly, Yahoo has the damn e-mail as well.[/li][/ul] > I know that’s not exactly what happened in this case, but the reality is that when you send an e-mail, it lives on in multiple servers and networks in the cloud. The concept of the cloud has been around for decades, and all of your e-mails are out there somewhere. In the first (only?) article I read I think they mentioned that most of the recovered emails were found that way. By going to all the people she CC’d and digging them out of their ‘received’ boxes or checking sent messages (back to her). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/35 "2014-06-16T22:17:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Until the server sends you a nastygram about how you are exceeding your allowed storage, and need to clear out space or your mail privileges will be suspended. At which point, you create a local archive that is at risk for being lost. Yup, this exact scenario happened to me and I ended up losing about a years worth of E-mails when my hard drive crashed. > [@leftfield6](#): > > E-mails don’t just live in one place though, so the hunt will likely go on. Think about it: > > [ul] > [li]Lois send an e-mail to Sam saying “fuck the righties, no tax exceptions for them!” [\*]She sends it from her “[sexytaxlady@hotmail.com](mailto:sexytaxlady@hotmail.com) account”. [/li][li]Sam is at “[muffdiver6969@yahoo.com](mailto:muffdiver6969@yahoo.com)”[/li][li]Lois realizes she is in trouble, and wipes out her e-mails.[/li][li]First off, hotmail should be able to recover those[/li][li]Secondly, Yahoo has the damn e-mail as well.[/li][/ul] > I know that’s not exactly what happened in this case, but the reality is that when you send an e-mail, it lives on in multiple servers and networks in the cloud. The concept of the cloud has been around for decades, and all of your e-mails are out there somewhere. That only works if Lois is connected to Sam, and Sam’s e-mails are similarly subpoenaed. They can’t just ask every server whether they have received an e-mail from [sexytaxlady@hotmail.com](mailto:sexytaxlady@hotmail.com) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/36 "2014-06-16T22:45:25Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Yup, this exact scenario happened to me and I ended up losing about a years worth of E-mails when my hard drive crashed. According to adaher you deliberately destroyed them because “No company just has emails on a person’s computer”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/37 "2014-06-16T23:08:09Z")
I guess that’s what I get for assuming the government has standards worthy of even a medium sized private company. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/38 "2014-06-16T23:20:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I guess that’s what I get for assuming the government has standards worthy of even a medium sized private company. No, it’s what you get for making things up and assuming you won’t get called on it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/39 "2014-06-16T23:30:17Z")
I wasn’t making things up. As was confirmed by many other posters, emails don’t just sit on someone’s computer. They are on a server. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/40 "2014-06-16T23:30:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have a question: if this had happened during a republican administration, would this thread now be 10,000- or 50,000-posts strong. This sort of Bizarro-world accusation is terrible argumentation, because there’s no way for your opponent to refute it. Except in this case, there is, as mentioned above. Do a little research, please, and come back to us with the answer: was the thread on the White House loss of emails about attorneys general firing (not about the firings themselves, specifically about the loss of emails) 10,000 or 50,000 posts long? Un, as you say, believable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759.md?page=3)