# Computer crash loses 2 years of Lois Lerner emails **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 14, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759 "2014-06-14T06:51:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/101 "2014-06-18T15:25:24Z")
I don’t know how things were during the 1950s, but today, rule changes are proposed through a process, and that process involves public comment. the IRS started to do that process, got their 150,000 comments, and temporarily withdrew the new rules. Lerner apparently tried to do a rule change on the downlow. And not really a rule change, since no rule would ever be written saying, “Target extremist political groups for extra scrutiny, let mainstream groups pass.” Plus a part of the scandal that really pissed off the right was the illegal questionnaires that were sent asking for donor lists and such. And the handover of tax records to third parties for publishing. There’s little doubt that someone was running an extralegal crusade in the IRS in the fashion of Joe Arpaio, and I think we now know who it was. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/102 "2014-06-18T15:35:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So? Neither liberal nor conservative groups should have tax-exempt status. If I ran the IRS, they’d all be rejected on receipt. Eventually all the conservative groups had theirs approved while some liberal groups did not. The right wing gripes are about as substantial as cries of “He’s looking at me” coming from the back seat of the family car. This is laughable. You made a claim and were shown you were wrong. Now, it’s “But, but, but…” followed by a completely different issue. No one would have a problem if groups from both ends of the political spectrum were treated the same. But they weren’t. But because it helped your side, for you, too, it’s hunky-dory. And, again, unsurprisingly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/103 "2014-06-18T15:37:13Z")
So the ACLU and Sierra Club would be denied tax exempt status when Bob runs the IRS? Personally, I have no issue with ending tax exempt status for all non-profits that aren’t involved in charity or religion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/104 "2014-06-18T15:37:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Either the IRS is allowed to make its own rules on this issue, or they’re not. If they’re allowed to make their own rules, then there is no scandal, because they just did what they’re allowed to. If they’re not allowed to make their own rules, then they’re bound by the rules that Congress has set for them, and the scandal is that they allowed tax-exempt status for political organizations. Regardless of who makes the rules, the IRS or Congress, they can’t have a political bias. That is the point. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/105 "2014-06-18T16:25:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t know how things were during the 1950s, but today, rule changes are proposed through a process, and that process involves public comment. Certain kinds of rules are subject to notice-and-comment rulemaking. But not every policy of the IRS with regard to investigation is such a rule. For example, a decision to send all of a certain type of applications to specific personnel for review would not be subject to notice-and-comment rulemaking. > [@adaher](#): > > Plus a part of the scandal that really pissed off the right was the illegal questionnaires that were sent asking for donor lists and such. It would potentially be illegal to base an approval decision on the answer (or non-answer) to certain questions–which as we know _did not happen_. I’m not sure on what basis you would call the questions themselves illegal. Is there some statute or regulation state the scope of investigation that the IRS is permitted to conduct that forbids asking about, say, donors? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/106 "2014-06-18T17:41:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is laughable. You made a claim and were shown you were wrong. Now, it’s “But, but, but…” followed by a completely different issue. No one would have a problem if groups from both ends of the political spectrum were treated the same. But they weren’t. But because it helped your side, for you, too, it’s hunky-dory. And, again, unsurprisingly. How does it help my side if some liberal groups were denied but every single conservative group was approved? And if every single conservative group was approved, what’s all the whining about? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/107 "2014-06-18T18:02:48Z")
They weren’t approved. Their applications languished somewhere in DC. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/108 "2014-06-18T18:07:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They weren’t approved. Their applications languished somewhere in DC. [From here.](http://www.salon.com/2013/05/15/meet_the_group_the_irs_actually_revoked_democrats/) > [@](#): > > \*\* But so far no one has identified a single conservative group that was denied status in the controversial review,\*\* though some faced bureaucratic hurdles and had their tax-exempt status delayed. > > In fact, the only known 501(c)(4) applicant to have its status denied happens to be a progressive group: the Maine chapter of Emerge America, which trains Democratic women to run for office. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/109 "2014-06-18T18:13:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A company can choose to delete emails from the server and then they are still only in the employee’s .pst or .ost file. But there is no PC to PC transmission of emails, at least not since 1995 or so. I can say with 100% certainty that the email at my company only resides on the particular PCs and nowhere else. Email is handled by a host which downloads it to the PCs when the PCs request it. There is NO backup at the host site nor are the PCs at the office backed-up. If the local PCs fry all email on them is gone. Period (unless unbeknownst to us the host is backing up all emails for some reason which I seriously doubt). The dangers of this arrangement has been brought to the attention of the owner but he doesn’t care (and likely won’t till the day his PC fries unexpectedly then doubtless someone else will get in trouble). It remains though that it is possible to lose all email when a PC fries even today. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/110 "2014-06-18T18:13:56Z")
> **[IRS approved liberal groups while Tea Party in limbo](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/05/14/irs-tea-party-progressive-groups/2158831/)** > > Liberal groups got approvals while tea party groups languished. WASHINGTON – In February 2010, the Champaign Tea Party in Illinois received approval of its tax-exempt status from the IRS in 90 days, no questions asked. That was the month before the Internal Revenue Service started singling out Tea Party groups for special treatment. There wouldn’t be another Tea Party application approved for 27 months. In that time, the IRS approved perhaps dozens of applications from similar liberal and progressive groups, a USA TODAY review of IRS data shows. As applications from conservative groups sat in limbo, groups with liberal-sounding names had their applications approved in as little as nine months. With names including words like “Progress” or “Progressive,” the liberal groups applied for the same tax status and were engaged in the same kinds of activities as the conservative groups. They included: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/111 "2014-06-18T18:15:42Z")
If they were also screening for “Occupy”, then that makes it even worse. It means Lerner was engaged in a general crusade against critics of the administration, right or left. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/112 "2014-06-18T18:20:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If they were also screening for “Occupy”, then that makes it even worse. It means Lerner was engaged in a general crusade against critics of the administration, right or left. You started a pit thread on this topic and you still don’t know the screening criteria used? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/113 "2014-06-18T18:23:47Z")
I don’t really care, because the screening criteria wasn’t the issue. The real issue was where applications were screened. Progressive groups were handled at the Cincinnati level, while TEa Party groups went to DC, where they languished. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/114 "2014-06-18T18:27:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t really care, because the screening criteria wasn’t the issue. The real issue was where applications were screened. Progressive groups were handled at the Cincinnati level, while TEa Party groups went to DC, where they languished. So the geographic location of an IRS worker has a direct relationship on how fast he works? The question everybody should be asking is why do these political groups deserve tax exempt status? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/115 "2014-06-18T18:28:41Z")
Cincinnati is where the applications were normally handled. The Tea Party applications were sent to DC for extra scrutiny. DC is where they keep the political hacks. We can ask that, but there’s a little thing called rule of law. Bureaucrats can’t make law, or even enforce law, outside the boundaries set by elected officials. It’s why Joe Arpaio can’t arrest illegal immigrants, and why Lois Lerner can’t deny tax exempt status to Tea Party groups. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/116 "2014-06-18T18:35:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How does it help my side if some liberal groups were denied but every single conservative group was approved? And if every single conservative group was approved, what’s all the whining about? Outright denying approval and just sitting on the application have the same effect for the upcoming election cycle. That what was done to the conservative groups, but not the progressive ones. My God, man, is this all brand new to you? You might want to read up on things. And I don’t mean on Media Matters. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/117 "2014-06-18T18:36:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So the geographic location of an IRS worker has a direct relationship on how fast he works? The question everybody should be asking is why do these political groups deserve tax exempt status? NO! That is a different question. One can full-on agree with you on that point, but it has nothing to do with the problem at the IRS. Do your really not get that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/118 "2014-06-18T18:37:20Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [From here.](http://www.salon.com/2013/05/15/meet_the_group_the_irs_actually_revoked_democrats/) See Post 116. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/119 "2014-06-18T18:37:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Regardless of who makes the rules, the IRS or Congress, they can’t have a political bias. That is the point. Tell that to the lawmakers passing voter ID laws and limiting early voting. Seriously, practically every law or rule is going to gore someone’s ox. Welcome to politics. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759/120 "2014-06-18T18:39:25Z")
Generally applicable rule. It’s entirely likely that a generally applicable IRS rule would still disadvantage Tea party groups more than progressive groups. But that’s still better than what Lerner was doing. If you want to compare it to voter ID, it would be passing a law requiring only minority voters to provide ID. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-crash-loses-2-years-of-lois-lerner-emails/690759.md?page=7)