# Computer problem - USB hardware (advanced) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089 "2005-09-04T20:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/1 "2005-09-04T20:40:42Z")
This is driving me nuts. I’m a Windows programmer (but so-so on hardware) but this has got me beat. The bottom line is, I want to hook up a USB hub to my home-built arcade cabinet, so I can plug in more than the 2 USB devices allowed by the motherboard. The problem: although Windows “sees” my USB devices, and doesn’t complain about them, they don’t work. The devices in question are a trackball (which looks like a mouse to Windows) and a spinner (also looks like a mouse, which only happens to move in the ‘x’ direction). I’m running XP, service pack 2. The motherboard is 4 years old at least, but I’m pretty sure I have the latest BIOS available. The USB hub is a little 4-way model, powered by the USB port (no AC adapter). The hub works fine on other computers - I can plug devices into it and they work fine. On my arcade cab, when I plug in the hub, Windows pops up a warning saying “This device can perform faster if you plug it into a High-Speed USB 2.0 port”. Fine, it’s a USB 2.0 hub, and perhaps my motherboard is old enough that it only supports USB 1.0. (Same message appears when I plug the hub into the other USB port.) When I plug my trackball into the hub, I don’t get the “new hardware detected” popup, but Windows _does_ add 2 new items to Device Manager under “Human Interface Devices” - “HID-compliant device” and “HID-compliant game controller”. However, the trackball doesn’t move the mouse pointer around, nor does clicking the buttons do anything. The little light on the hub comes on, indicating that the hub “sees” the trackball. When I plug the trackball directly into the USB port on the motherboard (without going through the hub), only one item is added in Device Manager - “USB Human Interface Device”. Still no “new hardware detected”. In this case, the trackball works fine - I can control the mouse cursor with it, clicking the buttons works etc. I get the same behavior when plugging my spinner into the USB hub - Windows sees it, but it doesn’t respond to inputs. Anyone have any idea what’s going on here? The only notion I have is that perhaps the hub is expecting more juice than the USB port can provide, and the lack of current is causing signals from the devices not to be “read”, even though Windows sees them. Sorry this is rather long-winded - at this point, I’m not sure what’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/2 "2005-09-04T20:46:50Z")
> [@DarrenS](#): > > The only notion I have is that perhaps the hub is expecting more juice than the USB port can provide, and the lack of current is causing signals from the devices not to be “read”, even though Windows sees them. No, that’s not it. When the (unpowered) USB hub is loaded past the 100 mA max current load, Windows pops up a Tray balloon that says something along the lines of “USB hub power exceeded.” If your USB hub has a separate wall-wart power supply, that shouldn’t be an issue, anyway. Wish I could be more helpful, but I figure eliminating a possibility is better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/3 "2005-09-04T21:09:49Z")
Sounds like your hardware needs drivers that weren’t properly properly and it’s trying to do the best to can with existing XP drivers. 1: Make sure MB BIOS USB implementation of both ports is active 2: Delete both USB device installs from device hardware chain 3: Delete the entire USB hardware chains from the hardware devices list - 4: Shut down PC 5: Power the hub - Passive USB is often wonky 6: Get latest drivers (if available) for hardware 7: Re-start system and reinitialize USB hardware then re-install attached devices with correct drivers ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/4 "2005-09-04T21:13:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > 3: Delete the entire USB hardware chains from the hardware devices list - One thing I would add: do this in Safe Mode, so that any duplicate devices will be shown and can be deleted. Sometimes those hidden dupes can cause problems along these lines. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/5 "2005-09-04T21:13:51Z")
That sounds promising, **astro**. I’ll give it a try. Regarding powering the hub - that’s not an option with this particular hub, but I do have one that accepts external power - as I recall, I had the same problems with it but I’ll try that too. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/6 "2005-09-04T22:34:08Z")
For now, I can’t do anything in Safe Mode or in the BIOS because, in the absence of the Nvidia drivers, the horizontal hold goes crazy on the TV and the display is unreadable. (I don’t have a monitor handy and the display is a TV for the arcade cabinet). When booting, the picture rolls like crazy until the XP logo appears, then it settles down. I tried deleting all the USB devices and hubs in Device Manager, unplugging everything, then plugging back in just the trackball, directly, no hub. I click “scan for hardware changes” and it goes into a flurry of “found new hardware”, finds drivers for everything. Interestingly, during the few seconds while it is searching for drivers, the trackball works - but when it says “your new hardware is installed and ready for use”, I’m back to the pointer not moving. So now, I can’t even get the trackball to work when plugged in directly. When I plug in the hub, it shows up as a “generic USB hub”. Under “USB devices”, there are a couple called “SiS 7001 PCI to USB Open Host Controller” - not sure what those are. There are also 2 x “USB Root hub”. It definitely looks like a driver problem, but how can I fix it? The trackball uses the standard Windows USB mouse drivers. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/7 "2005-09-04T22:52:36Z")
It sounds (possibly) like an incorrect driver at some point in the past was attached (in the registry) to the hardware’s initialization signature, and it will continue to pull this out and apply it until the driver is manually replaced. See if you can download the right driver for this device and go into the properties/driver tab under the hardware chain listing for this device and replace the driver manually. What is the device specifically? Model number and version if listed. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/8 "2005-09-04T22:59:09Z")
The trackball is one of these: [http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/565600xx2.htm](http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/565600xx2.htm) Their instruction sheet seems to be saying, just let Windows treat it like a regular USB mouse. In desperation I tried installing the Microsoft Intellipoint software, in the vain hope that it would be an overall better driver for USB mice and not just for Microsoft mice, but it didn’t help. I’ve now uninstalled it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/9 "2005-09-04T23:08:55Z")
> [@DarrenS](#): > > I’m running XP, service pack 2. The motherboard is 4 years old at least, but I’m pretty sure I have the latest BIOS available. 4 years old, eh? You might just be out of luck: if memory serves there used to be two USB hardware standards. Try going to the website of your motherboard manufacturer and look for chipset drivers. > [@DarrenS](#): > > The USB hub is a little 4-way model, powered by the USB port (no AC adapter). Not good, but not a killer. Do you get the problem if you power the hub? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/10 "2005-09-04T23:11:03Z")
I wonder if disabling the onboard USB and installing a USB 2.0 card would solve the problem. It’s certainly worth a try, since USB 2.0 expansion cards are relatively inexpensive these days. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/11 "2005-09-04T23:11:55Z")
[Re the manual](http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ins-0053.pdf) You don’t happen to have both the PS2 plugs and the USB plug connected at the same time do you? It’s one or the other, not both. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/12 "2005-09-04T23:26:39Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Re the manual](http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ins-0053.pdf) > > You don’t happen to have both the PS2 plugs and the USB plug connected at the same time do you? It’s one or the other, not both. Nah - only the USB connector. In fact, when I try to connect just the PS/2 connector, the trackball doesn’t work either (even after rebooting). This definitely looks like a driver problem, rather than an electronics problem, since the trackball works, albeit only for a couple of seconds, during the “found new hardware” dance. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/13 "2005-09-04T23:41:19Z")
It is also possible that [this](http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/bus/USB/hubs.mspx) is an issue here, depending on exactly what kind of hub(s) you are using: > [@](#): > > A few USB devices provide what seems to be a port on an embedded hub, but it is nothing more than one end of a USB extender cable. USB extender cables are explicitly prohibited by USB Specification, Version 1.1; see section 6.4.4. > > \ > > A USB device that can be configured by host system software when it is plugged into a port on a specification-compliant hub may not be configured successfully when it is plugged into the end of the USB extender cable that is available in a device including a pass-through USB hub. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/14 "2005-09-05T00:15:40Z")
This is the hub I’m using: [http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod\_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I3301](http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I3301) Unless the manufacturer is lying, it is supposed to be a genuine hub, not just an extender. I’m reinstalling SP2 as a random act of Voodoo to see if it fixes anything. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/15 "2005-09-05T00:21:16Z")
I will second the device driver idea. Almost any USB device will be recognized by XP, but whether or not you can “talk” to them depends heavily on the XP driver you have. We have to install special drivers to talk to our USB devices. ---
**Author:** ![Kiminy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Kiminy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiminy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/16 "2005-09-05T00:29:49Z")
Despite a previous post’s nay-say to the idea, I do have a strong suspicious that power may be the biggest issue here. Both of the devices you are trying to use do require a certain amount of power, and the hub may only only lack the power to help them out, but it may also not have the intelligence to realize that power is the issue. A USB hub does need a driver in and of itself, so it is not surprising that you see two “new” drivers when one of the input devices is plugged in through the hub. One minimal thing to try before buying a new, self-powered hub: plug in the hub and one of the devices. Go to the Hardware Device Manager and uninstall both drivers that are associated with that setup. Then leave both devices in place and restart the computer. With any luck, the computer will recognize both devices and reload the correct drivers for both devices. If that doesn’t work, I suggest you abandon the hub completely, and look into other options. If you only have two USB devices, you could simply plug both devices directly into the two USB ports, using USB extension cords if necessary. If you mave more than two USB devices, look to see if the motherboard has onboard ports to support an additional pair (or more) of USB devices using an expansion USB port devise. You could also look into investing in and installing a USB 2.0 expansion card. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/17 "2005-09-05T00:41:49Z")
> [@Kiminy](#): > > Despite a previous post’s nay-say to the idea, I do have a strong suspicious that power may be the biggest issue here. Maybe, but I still have my doubts. Typically, mice use less than 20 mA (often considerably less, particularly non-optical types), and two such devices together ought not to draw more than about 40 mA at most, still well below the 100 mA max for USB 1.1. The hub itself requires a certain amount, too, but I can’t see that exceeding 60 mA, though I can’t and won’t rule it out. I still think the USB 2.0 card is the way to go here, as I said earlier. Drivers issues are also not out of the question, as others have said. In any case, this is truly a vexing problem! ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/18 "2005-09-05T02:33:54Z")
Problem solved. My computer genius friend knew immediately what to do. The solution was to delete the INF files for the USB devices and hub, under the \Windows folder. Just for good measure we deleted the PNF files too. Once we unplugged and re-added the hardware, Windows detected it and installed the correct drivers. So, it was a problem with the Windows drivers, as a couple of people guessed. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/19 "2005-09-05T08:25:00Z")
If you’re uninstalling entire device chains from the Device manager, it’s worth doing it this way: [ul][li]Open a command line prompt window (Click Start\>Run and type \*\*cmd \*\* and click OK)[/li][li]In the command window, type **SET DEVMGR\_SHOW\_NONPRESENT\_DEVICES=1** and hit return (NB, type this with no spaces around the = sign - if you put spaces in it just won’t work).[/li][li]Type **start devmgmt.msc** and hit return.[/li][li]The Device Manager control panel will open up - click View\>Show Hidden Devices[/ul][/li] This enables you to see (and uninstall) devices that are installed, have registry entries, but are not currently connected. The usual disclaimers and warnings apply; back up your registry first etc. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-problem-usb-hardware-advanced/320089/20 "2005-09-05T17:26:57Z")
Good tip, **Mangetout** , and you accidentally answered another question I’ve had: how to put a shortcut directly to Device Manager on the desk top. Thanks to everyone for all the help.