# Computer programming and non-English speakers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768 "2010-08-28T05:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/21 "2010-08-28T17:23:59Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Not actually programming, but function names in Norwegian versions of Excel and Calc are translated. > > For actual programming I’ve never seen a translated version of keywords, although I’m sure there exists some. They may not even be programming languages for kids. Programming books in Norwegian exist aplenty, but what most requires knowledge of English is documentation for packages and librarires. > > Not that this is a problem in Norway where English is now part of the curriculum from the first or second year of elementary. I had a computer science professor in Canada in the mid-80’s who was from Norway; he mentioned when he got to second year university (the 1970’s, I presume), the professor there gave them the option of English or Norwegian for the class, and the class voted overwhelmingly for English. Of course, back then computer and math books would be overhelmingly in English; there is probably a significantly tinier marked for local language, and all the extra refeence material - journals, library, etc. - would be overwhelmingly in English. Even today, unless there is some strong local community, the on-line references are in English; I presume between Google translate and the beginner material there is enough to get started; but discussions on how to fix this or that posted online often contain “sorry for bad english mine” comments because English becomes the common language by which any two non-english programming posters can usually converse. (Love the scene in “What did you do in the War Dad?” - the German and Italian officers first meet… “Sprechen sie deutsch?” “Non. Parla italiana?” “Nein. Speak english?” “But of-a course!” From then on they speak in english through the film…) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/22 "2010-08-28T17:26:19Z")
I’m curious how deep the translation is for products like Excel. DOes a translated version betray its foreign roots, or are they choices for functions etc. pretty good? Is it a simple substitution of one keyword for another or does language alter the way some things work? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/23 "2010-08-28T18:23:50Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > [@Mops](#): > > > > My native language is German and I hate, hate, hate those few instances where keywords in (usually macro) languages get translated with the application (as for example with Excel formulas). It makes it harder to discuss problems internationally. > > Exactly the same applies for me. I have been doing professional programming for over 15 years and never met a German programmer who couldn’t understand English. As was mentioned before, the few keywords in a programming language are not that important, but the general jargon in IT is almost completely English, as well as the technical literature and of course the web resources. I couldn’t imagine doing my job without knowing English. I deal with German and Dutch programmers constantly as part of my job and they all speak fluent English (they are required to as a condition of employment by our company). We all work on the same programs so we have to speak a common programming language (as well as a common regular language). ---
**Author:** ![chromaticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@chromaticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chromaticity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/24 "2010-08-28T18:51:54Z")
In Japan, the situation seems a bit more complex. Most of the programmers here usually learn their stuff by reading the Japanese versions of the popular CS books, or books by Japanese authors (Some of which are really good). The examples are written completely using English keywords , but the comments and the explanations use the Japanese words. The first time I talked to someone about doubly linked circular lists, I was met with blank stares until a colleague translated it as a sohokojunkan risto (a real mouthful). But they were a pretty iffy bunch, and I expect most people would have no trouble understanding what is meant by the term in English. This kind of translation becomes very difficult if you are describing some uncommon constructs anyway. Last I heard, most universities have started to use the English words these days. Another interesting thing, there are different words in Japanese instead of foo and bar, so some of the temporary stuff will not be names as expected (hoge, hage and so on). It really bothers me sometimes. Most of the younger people I work with have no trouble working with open source code in English. In all the places I have worked, everyone uses English as a base language because of coding guidelines. But I do see some Japanese comments sometimes. Not encouraged at all. The only time I have seen non English stuff in the code (Documentation in another story) is while using legacy stuff, or when we use Japanese outsourced programmers. But even then, its rare. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/25 "2010-08-28T19:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I would say every Dutch person I ever met spoke English very well. I think of all the foreigners I’ve come across in my life, the Dutch come across as the best English speakers. With the Scandanavians coming in second. They must start English very early in those countries It might also be partly due to the fact that Dutch is arguably the language most closely related to English. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/26 "2010-08-28T19:32:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I would say every Dutch person I ever met spoke English very well. I think of all the foreigners I’ve come across in my life, the Dutch come across as the best English speakers. With the Scandanavians coming in second. They must start English very early in those countries > > It might also be partly due to the fact that Dutch is arguably the language most closely related to English. I’ll argue that, how about[Frise](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=250206)? (or is it Fries? hard to nail that down) ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/27 "2010-08-28T21:21:00Z")
I think programming is equally easy/hard whether you speak English or not. Someone mentioned EXCEL - here is an example (I hope the syntax is right) > [@](#): > > =IF(A1=2.3,A1,B1) US/UK version of EXCEL > =JOS(A1=2,3;A1;B1) Finnish version > =IF(A1=2,3;A1;B1) US/UK version of EXCEL in Finnish Windows Now that’s really confusing, because you have different delimiters based on your international settings of Windows. If I had an English version of EXCEL it would be an error using 2.3 instead of 2,3. > [@Derleth](#): > > From what I’ve about Finland, over 90% of the people there speak English and it closer to 100% among younger people. I have a friend that works in Finland and apparently younger Finns speak English better than the average American high school graduate. What comes to Finns speaking English, it sounds awful on many occations. This song is a joke, but my boss at NSN sounds just like this [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9fZb64Uo7g/hqdefault.jpg "Kivikasvot - Tankeros Love") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fZb64Uo7g) (Dangerous love) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/28 "2010-08-28T21:40:54Z")
> [@komolono](#): > > I think programming is equally easy/hard whether you speak English or not. Seconded. I mean many keywords like for, class, method, cast etc. are English words and yet their meaning in programming will probably not be immediately obvious to a native English speaker with no programming experience. That’s before we get to abbreviated commands like strtok or general strange naming like pragma. It probably _helps_ speaking english, but it’s not a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/29 "2010-08-29T01:29:45Z")
I agree many keywords have programming meanings that are not obvious to a native English speaker - in fact, this HAS to be true. If their meanings were the same, everybody would program by just writing what they wanted the computer to do, and wouldn’t think of it as a skill. Why, when choosing a word to mark the beginning of a sequence to be repeated, did we pick the word “DO”? That word doesn’t mean "get ready to start repeating everything I now tell you to do until I say the word “LOOP” ( or whatever the syntax requires). This is pretty true in computer use, too. If I ask you to pick up a book for me when you go into the next room, you say “OK” before you do it, not to signify that you think you have finished doing it. The keywords may look like English words, and often the English words remind us somewhat of what they do, but they aren’t English, are they? How are objects instances of classes, if you have an English understanding of what objects, instances, and classes are??? ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/30 "2010-08-29T01:36:52Z")
I guess it’s not a big issue… non-English speaking people came up with [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_(programming_language)) after all. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/31 "2010-08-29T01:43:02Z")
Slight hijack. I have a Romanian friend who speaks excellent English (now, after over 40 years in US and Canada). I once asked him where he learned English. His answer staggered me: by reading IBM technical manuals! \ (He got out of Romania by being sent to England to take an IBM training course and defected immediately.) ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/32 "2010-08-29T01:43:28Z")
At the opposite end of the spectrum, there is brainfuck. Sample hello world program from Wiki: ```auto ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. ``` 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/33 "2010-08-29T02:05:48Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > I guess in the future with top level domain names now being slowly approved in other alphabets that this may slowly change This has nothing to do with anything, really: TLDs are only the last few characters of a domain name, and domains are being approved in all kinds of languages. [This is already causing problems.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack) But this has precisely jack to do with why little Jacques still does while loops in Java just like Lisa. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/34 "2010-08-29T02:17:18Z")
> [@robert\_andrews](#): > > A good way to think about this might be to take a programming language you know, and translate keywords and identifiers into a non-English language and see how well you think you would do. It would be trivial to do this. Do you have any evidence anyone has? I certainly can’t think of any. > [@Markxxx](#): > > > [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > > > … > > Professional programmers over here in the Netherlands all speak English reasonably well, > > I would say every Dutch person I ever met spoke English very well. I think of all the foreigners I’ve come across in my life, the Dutch come across as the best English speakers. With the Scandanavians coming in second. They must start English very early in those countries How do you tell a Swede from a Californian? The Swede speaks better English. 😉 > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > From what I’ve about Finland, over 90% of the people there speak English and it closer to 100% among younger people. I have a friend that works in Finland and apparently younger Finns speak English better than the average American high school graduate. Please be more careful with your quoting. You misattributed something to me. > [@komolono](#): > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > From what I’ve about Finland, over 90% of the people there speak English and it closer to 100% among younger people. I have a friend that works in Finland and apparently younger Finns speak English better than the average American high school graduate. > > What comes to Finns speaking English, it sounds awful on many occations. This song is a joke, but my boss at NSN sounds just like this … and here we see how the misquoting lossage spreads. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/35 "2010-08-29T03:24:30Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I agree many keywords have programming meanings that are not obvious to a native English speaker - in fact, this HAS to be true. If their meanings were the same, everybody would program by just writing what they wanted the computer to do, and wouldn’t think of it as a skill. Yep. And this is not to confuse people, it’s because programming involves concepts that often do not map to a single word in English. We could just as well invent new terms each time there is a new concept. Instead, the convension is to pick an english word with some association to the concept. Which is sometimes helpful. And sometimes not. And sometimes, it can actually be misleading…though I can’t think of a good example right now. I suppose “switch” would be misleading to someone new to programming. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/36 "2010-08-29T23:10:43Z")
Thanks, everyone, for the interesting information. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/37 "2010-08-29T23:52:48Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And sometimes, it can actually be misleading…though I can’t think of a good example right now. I suppose “switch” would be misleading to someone new to programming. How about the “continue” keyword found in many C-like languages? It’s nowhere near obvious, unless you’re already familiar with the idiom, that “continue” in this context really means “transfer execution to beginning of the loop.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/38 "2010-08-30T01:18:41Z")
I’ve seen javascript examples that used a translated word for “this”. It took me a bit to figure out what it was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/39 "2010-08-30T06:15:31Z")
Pascal, written by Nick Wirth who was Swiss, used English keywords. I tore apart their Pascal compiler for my dissertation, and had no problems. BTW my daughter is going to take an MA in International Business in Germany next year, in her spare time. It is totally taught in English. Sometimes I feel that we Americans are very provincial. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768/40 "2010-08-30T06:33:53Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > > [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > > > … > > Professional programmers over here in the Netherlands all speak English reasonably well, > > I would say every Dutch person I ever met spoke English very well. I think of all the foreigners I’ve come across in my life, the Dutch come across as the best English speakers. With the Scandanavians coming in second. They must start English very early in those countries Last year I took a Master’s in Translation, in Scotland. We had a career talk about being a EU translator: I asked whether you are required to translate into your “mother’s tongue”(1) and he said that well, it’s the usual but there’s actually two people in the EN team who do not have English as their mother’s tongue: one Dutch, one Finnish. Somewhat back to the subject at hand, we’ve had problems in multinational companies when using Excel macros and templates for data cleansing, because of the formatting and function-name differences. Eventually the easiest workaround was to centralize the work, but what a pain! And the delimiters aren’t even correct! (In Spanish, and according to my French classmates it’s also true for them, the decimal marker is not a comma as Windows makes it, but an apostrophe; but every computer program written Elsewhere gives us a comma copying it from Windows) **md** , the translated functions in Excel aren’t correct either. SUM is translated as SUMA, but suma is merely addition; the correct term for what SUM does is SUMATORIO. If you’re going to abbreviate it, you would do better just leaving it as SUM for everybody, specially since it would not confuse people as to what it does (and yes, I’ve had to explain to people that they did not have to run several SUMAs to get the result of adding up a bunch of numbers). Then again, we’re speaking about a program which doesn’t define its statistical functions properly either, so… 1: I don’t like that expression because my mother’s language is not my first language, and I know many other people in the same situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/computer-programming-and-non-english-speakers/551768.md?page=3)