# Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act-Good Idea or Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368 "2017-04-27T15:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/81 "2017-04-27T20:24:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Really? That’s all Iowa requires to give you a license? $300? Nothing else? It’s the same test all over the country, and the test is reciprocal. You only have to pass it once, and let each state know when and where you took it so that they can verify with the testing agency. The paperwork is different, but asks the same questions. Attach your college transcripts, a couple of references, and you’re good to go. Oh yeah, don’t forget that fee (it varies, but $300 is typical, not counting the fee to take the test). To clarify for others, we’re talking about Professional Engineer licenses here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/82 "2017-04-27T20:25:35Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > The first answer is you never know when you might need a gun. In a cafe, shopping mall, etc… :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > But the second answer is you might _need_ to go places for work, or to visit a friend. Or you might be traveling through one place to get to another. > > The bill is important because we don’t live our entire lives in one state. People can (and do) debate about whether others should carry guns. I get that. But part of the impetus for this is the woman who bought a gun and got her carry permit in PA to protect herself (she lived in a bad neighborhood in Philly). She crossed a bridge into NJ and foolishly told a cop who pulled her over for a traffic violation that she had a pistol in her car. She believed her PA license allowed her to carry in NJ. She was looking at many years behind bars before public outrage (and the governor) pressured the DA into not charging her. I’ve always been a believer that legislation should be tailored to the need, to the extent reasonably possible. For an unrelated example, I can see the logic of a reduced tax rate for capital gains when we’re talking about raising capital for a new business. But if I buy shares of Amazon, and sell them after they go up, why should my income from that capital gain be advantaged relative to other forms of income? If you’re going to have any tax preference at all for capital gains, it should be focused on the need. Same here. You’re advocating a sweeping solution to a fairly limited problem. In the latter example, it stuns me to find that possession of a handgun without a license is a crime punishable by “many years behind bars.” That strikes me as wildly disproportionate to the offense - ‘offense’ because ‘crime’ seems like too strong a word. ISTM that the NRA, with its clout, would have no problem mobilizing against such draconian laws regarding gun possession. (They - quite effectively - work to change state gun laws all the time, so this would hardly be a reach for them.) And for once in my life, I’d be cheering them on. In the former example, how hard is it to get a concealed-carry license in a state where you don’t live, but you do have business, whether job-related or personal business? If it’s really too heavy a lift, then again, I’m sure the NRA could lobby to make it easier. But turning a concealed-carry permit in any one state into a nationwide permit seems to be a rather sweeping solution that goes far beyond the limited problems it claims to address. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/83 "2017-04-27T20:25:56Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Utah is favored because a) many other states accept it, and b) they make it easy for nonresidents to get, yes. But you still have to pay money to sit in a class, and then more money to the state of Utah for fingerprints and background check etc. **But I meant that Vermont is not going to give you a permit to carry in Michigan without any test or fees unless you live in Vermont**. Well, Vermont, no, but I can imagine that some states might be happy to provide nonresidents with a CCW with nearly as little effort as becoming an ordained minister with the Universal Life Church, for no other reason than the principle of it and to collect $50 per non-resident application. What’s more, nothing in the legislation limits states from becoming CCW mills. Since these proposed bills generally seek to override some states’ laws to one degree or another, do you think there also should be a national standard on the minimum requirements for a CCW? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/84 "2017-04-27T20:26:55Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The reciprocity law should have something in it that would cover that case. Maybe something that would exempt those who are transiting in the state from the state’s gun laws as long as they comply with the license-issuing state’s laws. With a strict time limit on the duration of the transit, of course. Although that’s clunky and I am not sure how can be easily checked. There already is such a law: [FOPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#.22Safe_Passage.22_provision). Gun control states have a bit of a habit of ignoring it and arresting people anyways. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/85 "2017-04-27T20:30:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … do you think there also should be a national standard on the minimum requirements for a CCW? No, but I’d be open to changing my mind if someone can demonstrate significant differences in outcomes between stringent-CCW-requirement states and lax-CCW-requirement states. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/86 "2017-04-27T20:31:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You say “foolishly” told the cop about the gun. I don’t know about philly or NJ, but in ohio, if you have a gun in the car, registered or not, CCW or not, and you don’t tell the cop, that’s what is foolish. [There are people working to change that](http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/29/no-need-to-tell-police-about-concealed-guns-ohio-lawmakers-propose/99691710/). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Good to know, I was not aware that states varied so much, and would have though it required in all states to inform a cop that pulled you over that you were carrying a weapon. Most states don’t require notification. Here’s the absurd result of Ohio’s law and jackbooted thug cops: > [@](#): > > … a driver involved in a crash told the first three police officers on the scene that he had a concealed handgun license but was cited for failing to tell the fourth officer who arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/87 "2017-04-27T20:32:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The House version seems to be a bit looser: “A qualified individual must: (1) be eligible to possess, transport, or receive a firearm under federal law; (2) carry a valid photo identification document; and (3) carry a valid concealed carry permit issued by, **or be eligible to carry a concealed firearm in, his or her state of residence.** ” (bolding mine) This seems to indicate that if your state doesn’t require any permit, then you don’t have to carry it in other states. Good catch, I missed that. Wow, the House version is some radical bullshit. > [@Orwell](#): > > Of course, I also think there is nothing wrong with the 13 states that have decided that their citizens don’t need to fill out forms, pay fees and jump hurdles to exercise a constitutional right. There’s no constitutional right to carry concealed weapons, for the record. See _DC v Heller._ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/88 "2017-04-27T20:38:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s no constitutional right to carry concealed weapons, for the record. [For now](http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/peruta-v-california/). > [@](#): > > Issue: Whether the Second Amendment entitles ordinary, law-abiding citizens to carry handguns outside the home for self-defense in some manner, including concealed carry when open carry is forbidden by state law. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/89 "2017-04-27T20:40:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Seems to me that the bill would allow State A to prohibit carrying in a school because of (b)(2); but that someone from State B who held a CCP from that state may be immune to arrest by State A if the gun was carried openly, regardless of State A’s law. But state law can prohibit carry on state-owned property. And in general the states own the streets either directly or through the cities or other subdivision which they control, don’t they? So I’d think a state could prohibit concealed carry on its streets. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/90 "2017-04-27T20:42:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > In the former example, how hard is it to get a concealed-carry license in a state where you don’t live, but you do have business, whether job-related or personal business? If it’s really too heavy a lift, then again, I’m sure the NRA could lobby to make it easier. I somewhat regularly work in MD and DC, and sometimes in not-so-great areas. How hard is it to get a carry permit in those two jurisdictions? If you really don’t know, it’s virtually impossible for either residents or someone living somewhere else. Same goes for NY, NJ and other states. > [@](#): > > There’s no constitutional right to carry concealed weapons, for the record. See DC v Heller. Yeah, I know what the court said. But I also know what the words “keep” and “bear” mean. I’m thankful Heller ended up the way it did, but it didn’t go far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/91 "2017-04-27T20:43:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [For now](http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/peruta-v-california/). Sure. But you can’t use a hypothetical outcome of a pending case as an argument for changing the law now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/92 "2017-04-27T20:45:14Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > But state law can prohibit carry on state-owned property. And in general the states own the streets either directly or through the cities or other subdivision which they control, don’t they? So I’d think a state could prohibit concealed carry on its streets. No, a state can’t treat public streets as “state property,” for the purposes you envision. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/93 "2017-04-27T20:48:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s no constitutional right to carry concealed weapons, for the record. See _DC v Heller._ No, but there _is_ a constitutional right to carry. And people throw huge fits when open carry is exercised, so concealed is where we’re at now. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/94 "2017-04-27T20:54:49Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Yeah, I know what the court said. But I also know what the words “keep” and “bear” mean. I’m thankful Heller ended up the way it did, but it didn’t go far enough. Well, the court decides what’s a constitutional right, so like I said above, it’s not a sturdy girding for an argument. Is there a term for someone one wishes to be a constitutional right, while acknowledging that it isn’t one at the present time? If not, there should be. > [@DrCube](#): > > No, but there _is_ a constitutional right to carry. And people throw huge fits when open carry is exercised, so concealed is where we’re at now. That doesn’t make it a right, so long as we’re clear on that. People throw fits when people litter, doesn’t make littering laws unconstitutional. Or, come to Kentucky. I see open carry here all the time, never seen anyone given shit over it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/95 "2017-04-27T20:55:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure. But you can’t use a hypothetical outcome of a pending case as an argument for changing the law now. Sure. I don’t think anyone’s trying to use the outcome of _Peruta_ (it’s not even certain that SCOTUS will take the case) to justify this law. It’s an idea that’s been around for a long time. [Here is an article](http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/294611-senate-rejects-conceal-carry-gun-reciprocity-amendment) on a 57-43 Senate vote from 2013. > [@](#): > > Sens. Mark Begich (Alaska), Joe Donnelley (Ind.), Kay Hagan (N.C.), Heidi Heitkamp (N.D.), Jon Tester (Mont.), Mary Landrieu (La.), Joe Manchin (W.Va.), Mark Pryor (Ark.), Martin Heinrich (N.M.), Mark Udall (Colo.), Tom Udall (N.M.), Mark Warner (Va.) and Max Baucus (Mont.) were the red-state and Western Democrats who supported Cornyn’s amendment. GOP Sen. Mark Kirk (Ill.) voted against the amendment. And [here is the actual vote](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote=00100). ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/96 "2017-04-27T20:57:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Good catch, I missed that. Wow, the House version is some radical bullshit.\* There’s nothing radical at all about the quoted passage. That is there to specifically encompass people living in 13 states who don’t need to get a resident permit. If they don’t need one in their state, they don’t need to get a permit to please the other states. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/97 "2017-04-27T21:08:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which states do not require a background check before issuing a CCW permit? I could be wrong, but Maine, Arizona, Kansas, Wyoming, Alaska, Vermont, and Missouri do not require permits to carry concealed, and Vermont won’t even let you get one if you wanted it, so if there is forced reciprocity with those states, using the language of the house bill that, as I understand it, says that you only have to carry the documentation that you would need in your home state, then all states would have to accept them. Also, > [@](#): > > [Permits from Virginia …only require applicants to pay a fee, watch a gun safety video, and answer an online questionnaire.](https://www.thetrace.org/2016/02/live-fire-training-not-mandatory-concealed-carry-permits/) Now, I fully admit that I may be misunderstanding these things, bu it does in fact seem that at the very least Virginia, and most likely Vermont, and I think the other states as well will not require a background check before you can take your concealed gun out of the state under this bill. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [There are people working to change that](http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/29/no-need-to-tell-police-about-concealed-guns-ohio-lawmakers-propose/99691710/). > > Most states don’t require notification. Here’s the absurd result of Ohio’s law and jackbooted thug cops: While I will agree that it is silly that he got into trouble for not notifying the last cop on the scene, I feel that that is more an issue of police overstepping their authority than a problem with the law. The way I see it, he was in full compliance with the law when he told the first cop. If there is an issue with the way the law is written that allows the police to abuse their authority in this was, then maybe that language should be addressed, but that does not mean that the bill should be scrapped. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/98 "2017-04-27T21:11:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. I don’t think anyone’s trying to use the outcome of _Peruta_ (it’s not even certain that SCOTUS will take the case) to justify this law. Not in those terms, no. > [@](#): > > It’s an idea that’s been around for a long time. [Here is an article](http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/294611-senate-rejects-conceal-carry-gun-reciprocity-amendment) on a 57-43 Senate vote from 2013. It’s been bandied about as compromise fodder (say, universal carry and universal background checks in the same law) for years. > [@Orwell](#): > > There’s nothing radical at all about the quoted passage. That is there to specifically encompass people living in 13 states who don’t need to get a resident permit. If they don’t need one in their state, they don’t need to get a permit to please the other states. The House version applies different rules for different people in the state (eg, in Kentucky you can’t carry in bars, in Kansas you can. Under the House bill, a Kansan could come to Kentucky and carry in a bar, but the locals couldn’t), and thus effectively bars a state from determining where (other than state gov’t buildings) people can carry, or who gets to carry. Stripping the states of their general police power like this is quite radical. I’ve heard plenty of universal carry proposals in my day (as said above, it’s been talked about), but none that just bulldozed the states like this, they were all like the Senate version (nonresidents are treated as though they had the local state permit). ETA: If you want to come to Kentucky, you damn well better “please” us by obeying our laws. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/99 "2017-04-27T21:15:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > by staying away from people wearing black hats? Been traveling all my life, and never once felt the need to carry a gun. I’ve never needed a fire extinguisher either, but I keep one in the garage, inside the house, and in my car or truck. Same with a first aid kit. I’ve a few items now that I think about it, that I don’t really _want_ to use, but they are pretty damn handy to have when required. Dog spray. Bear spray when in bear country. Hell, even jjmper cables. Ya pays yer money and take yer chances. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368/100 "2017-04-27T21:15:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, but I’d be open to changing my mind if someone can demonstrate significant differences in outcomes between stringent-CCW-requirement states and lax-CCW-requirement states. The juxtaposition of your views on states having no say in Federal legislation on the police powers of their jurisdiction, but your complaint about the Federal government changing the designation of Federal lands as an obscene violation of states’ rights, is hard to square. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-good-idea-or-not/785368.md?page=6)