# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/181 "2009-05-24T18:50:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’m not an expert on snakes, venom, or the various kinds of rattle snakes in the U.S. If someone I know was bit by one I would kill the snake so that it could be properly identified. Unnecessary and dangerous. Handling a freshly killed rattlesnake without knowing what you’re doing is a good way to get bitten again. Even a severed head can still bite by reflex for a time after death. The standard treatment for rattlesnake bite is a polyvalent antivenin, which is a mixture of antivenins of multiple species that is considered effective against the venom of any North American pit viper (rattlesnakes, copperhead, cottonmouth/water moccasin). > [@Washoe](#): > > IIRC, rattlers are the only venomous snake west of the Rockies. There is also the Arizona coral snake, found in Arizona and New Mexico. You’re much less likely to encounter one of these puppies (or its eastern cousin) than you are a pit viper, but it does have a completely different type of venom requiring a different treatment. No one could confuse one of these brightly colored little guys (“red to yellow, kill a fellow”) with a rattler, though. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/182 "2009-05-24T18:54:51Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The crazy SOB who you need to worry about, would be packing, no matter how harsh the law is. This is just a variation on that old bit of nonsense: “If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns.” This has been debunked so many times, I’m surprised it keeps coming up. The short answer is that yes, that’s true. And because it’s true it would be an enormous benefit to law enforcement. If only outlaws have guns, that means the police don’t have to wait for you to do something bad with a gun to arrest you. The mere fact that you possess one means that you are, by definition, a criminal, and can be taken off the streets. We have created a society that is awash in firearms. We have one of the highest crime rates among industrialized nations. The pro-gun advocates would have us believe that the solution to this mess is to introduce more guns. I say this argument makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/183 "2009-05-24T18:56:32Z")
I’m wondering about the color codes for situational awareness. It seems like they might vary from place to place. Here in Texas the lowest level where people are oblivious to what’s happening around them is White. Then comes Yellow, Orange and Red. Black is panic mode during an assault. That’s where the White dwellers automatically default to. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/184 "2009-05-24T18:59:06Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > This is just a variation on that old bit of nonsense: “If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns.” This has been debunked so many times, I’m surprised it keeps coming up. > > The short answer is that yes, that’s true. And because it’s true it would be an enormous benefit to law enforcement. If only outlaws have guns, that means the police don’t have to wait for you to do something bad with a gun to arrest you. The mere fact that you possess one means that you are, by definition, a criminal, and can be taken off the streets. > > We have created a society that is awash in firearms. We have one of the highest crime rates among industrialized nations. The pro-gun advocates would have us believe that the solution to this mess is to introduce more guns. I say this argument makes no sense whatsoever. Ridiculous. So explain how it is that the cops know a criminal has a gun. Are you advocating random searches? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/185 "2009-05-24T19:00:58Z")
How do the police know that someone has narcotics? So we should legalize heroin? Is that your argument? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/186 "2009-05-24T19:01:09Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I do remain in condition yellow and try to avoid being cornered. But in the case I might be, then the above scenario is put into play. I’m not hoping for trouble, I’m just aware of my surroundings. How do you remain in “condition yellow” while you’re out ther in the real world enjoying life where there atr other paople, like at a mall, downtown, at a coffee shop, or an event? Others have a right to that 30 feet you want to claim as your own. I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/187 "2009-05-24T19:01:47Z")
The thing about open carry is that the overwhelming majority of the population probably wouldn’t even notice. We’ve already talked about how nearly everyone walks around in ‘condition green’ – some are even proud of doing so. They’d be mostly oblivious. Case in point – about 6 months after I got my CHL and began carrying, I was in a big box retail store and had to use the little boys’ room. Since I was carrying, I didn’t want to use the urinals, so I headed for a stall, did my business, and went back to shopping. Unbeknownst to me, my overshirt got caught behind my holster, exposing the gun. I walked around that store for 30 more minutes, which was pretty busy, and…nothing. It wasn’t until I was at checkout that the cashier noticed the gun. Turns out she had a CHL, too, so it wasn’t a big deal. I got it covered up again and went on about my merry way. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/188 "2009-05-24T19:02:51Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > How do the police know that someone has narcotics? So we should legalize heroin? Is that your argument? Are you serious? That’s your answer to my question? ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/189 "2009-05-24T19:06:51Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > How do you remain in “condition yellow” while you’re out ther in the real world enjoying life where there atr other paople, like at a mall, downtown, at a coffee shop, or an event? > Others have a right to that 30 feet you want to claim as your own. > I don’t get it. It’s not a 30 foot bubble. It’s a zone wherein if you are directly threatening to kill me or cause me serious bodily injury, you will be shot. Outside of 30 feet, there are more options–verbal warning, the chance for me to retreat, etc. Inside of 30 feet is a different story. Same concept as home defense. If I see you outside stealing my car, I’m calling the cops. If you come through the door, you’re getting shot. It’s more of an aforethought–what is the limit to which I’m willing to let an attacker get before I retaliate. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/190 "2009-05-24T19:10:13Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > How do you remain in “condition yellow” while you’re out ther in the real world enjoying life where there atr other paople, like at a mall, downtown, at a coffee shop, or an event? > Others have a right to that 30 feet you want to claim as your own. > I don’t get it. I see who is around me, I see what they’re doing. I see if maybe something doesn’t look right. I pay a bit more attention if it doesn’t. An example of my life before being more aware is my experience of being robbed that I mentioned before. I was pulling into the parking lot of a bookstore one night. As I pulled up I noticed one sole car parked at the other end of the lot. I thought to myself, “hmm, that looks fishy, a car full of guys just sitting there. They look like they’re waiting to rob someone. Nah.” So I pop out of my car and it seemed like they were on me instantly. Now I would just drive off if I assessed that a situation might be questionable. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/191 "2009-05-24T19:15:18Z")
Just wanted to post this quote from GQ, in the thread about pepper spray: “A real self-defense course will teach her more important skills regarding how not to get attacked in the first place. A big part of self defense is learning how to evaluate threats and not looking like a worthwhile victim. Actually fighting back is just a small part of self-defense. The bigger part is confidence.” Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/192 "2009-05-24T19:16:05Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I’m wondering about the color codes for situational awareness. It seems like they might vary from place to place. Here in Texas the lowest level where people are oblivious to what’s happening around them is White. Then comes Yellow, Orange and Red. Black is panic mode during an assault. That’s where the White dwellers automatically default to. Either I’m not understanding your definitions, or you’re not defining the conditions correctly. There has to be a condition between “oblivious” and “ready to shoot”. One can be relaxed, but aware. That’s where you initially size up the situation, then watch for change. Ten seconds (actually less) in yellow, and I’m back to relaxed but aware. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/193 "2009-05-24T19:21:47Z")
White-Unaware of surroundings Yellow-Vigilant, scanning, assessing Orange-Possible threat detected Red-Threat presents itself, one must act to stop the threat. Black-Panic mode, the victim never saw it coming ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/194 "2009-05-24T19:24:04Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Are you serious? That’s your answer to my question? You seem to be saying that because a law is difficult to enforce, it shouldn’t exist. I’m rejecting that argument. (Actually, narcotics prohibition isn’t really a good analogy, because the solution to that problem is to treat it as a public health problem, not as a crime. But I digress.) In countries with strict laws against handguns, the rate of crimes involving handguns is miniscule compared to ours. People don’t get shot in hold-ups. People’s children don’t accidentally shoot their playmates. People don’t get into domestic disputes and end up gunning each other down. And the U.S. stats are pretty difficult to dispute - a handgun that someone has for “protection” is much more often used on a family member or neighbor than on a “bad guy.” Or it simply gets stolen during a mundane burglary. In that case, not only does it not prevent the burglary, it makes the burglar a whole lot more dangerous to the next homeowner whose home he breaks into. These other countries have obviously figured out how to make it work, and seem to be able to do it without creating a police state. Would there be practical difficulties? Of course. But you start with a national ban on handguns (let’s not get bogged down in definitions - I’m sure we could arrive at a definition of firearms whose only conceivable use is to shoot another person). You stop all sales - no more store sales, no more gun show sales, no more private party sales. Possession of a prohibited gun? Instant 10-year sentence. Use of a gun in the commission of some other crime? Ten years tacked onto the sentence. (Just spit-ballin’, here.) Have a one-week amnesty period every year when people could turn in prohibited weapons without any penalties (but make sure they haven’t actually been used in a crime, if possible). Would this instantly get rid of the glut of weapons? No, but you can be pretty sure there would be fewer and fewer of them with every passing year. I’d call that progress. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/195 "2009-05-24T19:29:56Z")
Again, how do the police know a bad guy has a gun? And to your point regarding guns in other countries. They took steps to limit firearms generations ago. The US did not, It’s too late to keep them away from criminals here. Thus, we need to protect ourselves from them. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/196 "2009-05-24T19:35:39Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > White-Unaware of surroundings > Yellow-Vigilant, scanning, assessing > Orange-Possible threat detected > Red-Threat presents itself, one must act to stop the threat. > Black-Panic mode, the victim never saw it coming That’s what I thought, and it’s missing something. You can be aware without being vigilant, scanning, and assessing. The description of “white” sounds like something meant to ridicule anyone who isn’t at at least “yellow”. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/197 "2009-05-24T19:37:48Z")
Nope, not meant to ridicule anyone. I would hope that everyone could be in condition Yellow so they could be safer. It’s not the movies, people are victimized in real life. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/198 "2009-05-24T19:38:25Z")
Meh. If the mere presence of guns were the problem, there’d be no Swiss. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/199 "2009-05-24T19:39:26Z")
Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/200 "2009-05-24T19:42:49Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > The US did not, It’s too late to keep them away from criminals here. Thus, we need to protect ourselves from them. That’s saying that the problem is so bad, we can’t fix it - your proposed solution has never been proven to work. The proliferation of handguns has not reduced crime. When crime rates do actually go down (and they do sometimes!), it can usually be traced to better policing efforts, to efforts to reduce poverty, to efforts to improve education, and so on. I don’t think there’s a nation on earth in which arming the citizenry had the effect of reducing crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=11)