# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/201 "2009-05-24T19:47:38Z")
Avoiding my question, huh? I don’t carry to make the crime rate go down. I carry to stop a threat against my family, friends, others who need my help or myself. A single crime that might happen wherever I might be. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/202 "2009-05-24T19:51:03Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Nope, not meant to ridicule anyone. I would hope that everyone could be in condition Yellow so they could be safer. It’s not the movies, people are victimized in real life. “It’s not the movies” is exactly why I’m comfortable not needing to be in yellow except in rare circumstances. Different perceptions of danger, I suspect. In my neighborhood you’d likely be in condition orange 24/7. I’ve been around long enough to learn that mere “mean-mugging” and hoodies do not constitute a threat. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/203 "2009-05-24T19:53:45Z")
Okay, I’ll answer for you. In your scenario we can’t know what criminal might be carrying a gun, so if you took away the possibility of non-criminals carrying guns, we’d be in the same boat as now. Except victims could no longer protect themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/204 "2009-05-24T19:55:29Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Meh. If the mere presence of guns were the problem, there’d be no Swiss. People in Switzerland go around armed? I’m not aware of the situation there. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/205 "2009-05-24T19:56:43Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] [QUOTE=me] paragraph (b) of this section allows for concealed weapons in every national park and wildlife refuge not located in Wisconsin, Illinois, and D.C., in accordance with state regulations on concealed carry. [/QUOTE] Wisconsin has [open carry](http://opencarry.org/). The legality of it has been confirmed by the State Attorney General, a couple of court cases, including in the State Supreme Court, and even by the otherwise anti-gun Governor. Nothing in State law that I can see would prohibit one from OCing in a national park. [/QUOTE] Not sure what part of my statement contradicted that, but okay. ::shrug:: > [@](#): > > Would you feel more comfortable around a person you knew for a fact was armed, or around one you weren’t sure of? Well, yeah. Forewarned is forearmed, no? IOW, it’s good to have as much information as I can about my environment, so I can decide how best to react to it. Concealing your weapon reduces the information I have and puts me at a disadvantage. Since I can’t tell what’s going on in your mind, I can’t use that to determine if you are a ‘good guy’ simply arming yourself for your own protection, or a ‘bad guy’ ready to pump me full of lead because I looked at you funny. Quite honestly, seeing a weapon on your person is going to make me more aware of what I need to do protect myself from you should you unexpectedly decide to go all pulp fiction. You may think that’s a good thing, but right now, it makes me uncomfortable. Sorry about that, chief. > [@](#): > > Or doesn’t it matter and the overall idea of someone electing to have protection is what freaks you out? Whatever gave you that idea? Pre-conceived notions about people who disagree with you or what? If I gave you that impression, you most certainly haven’t been paying attention. I’m kind of wondering if any of you who do carry would feel obliged to let a companion know that you were carrying if you knew they were somewhat uneasy with that. Or if they were staying with you and you kept firearms in the guestroom they were sleeping in. I have to say, I’d feel a lot more comfortable knowing what’s around me than not. Perhaps, it might even make it easier for me to get used to the idea that I can feel safe in the presence of citizens who opt to carry. > [@](#): > > [QUOTE=me] > It’s not that I don’t believe in the Second Amendment Um, yeah, I gotta call B.S. on that.:rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Yeah, whatever. :rolleyes: It’s plain to see that by supporting any gun control whatsoever, I don’t think anyone should ever have access to firearms. Sorry, but it’s not that black and white for me. If you’re not interested in discussion, you don’t have to participate in my thread. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/206 "2009-05-24T19:57:17Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > “It’s not the movies” is exactly why I’m comfortable not needing to be in yellow except in rare circumstances. Different perceptions of danger, I suspect. In my neighborhood you’d likely be in condition orange 24/7. I’ve been around long enough to learn that mere “mean-mugging” and hoodies do not constitute a threat. So you’re saying that I could never anticipate something going wrong? Or is it bad to anticipate something going wrong. Or nothing ever goes wrong? What would be the downside to me detecting a threat, an ACTUAL threat, and stopping it before an innocent was hurt? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/207 "2009-05-24T19:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d feel a lot more comfortable knowing what’s around me than not Huh? How does that even make any sense? Are you gonna be worried that maybe there’s child porn on the desktop in the room. Are you gonna worry there might be a dead body under the mattress? Are you going to imagine an infinite number of possible things that you’d rather know about? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/208 "2009-05-24T20:07:23Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Meh. If the mere presence of guns were the problem, there’d be no Swiss. No, sorry - it’s just not comparable. While there are a lot of guns in private hands in Switzerland, most of them are rifles - only officers are issued pistols. Carrying firearms in public or outdoors is permitted only for active-duty militia, and for people in the security business (carry permits are not easy to get). There are all sorts of controls on ammunition sales, on transport of weapons, and so on. In 2007, the storage of ammunition in private homes was banned. And even with all of that, there’s an ongoing political debate about instituting further restrictions. There will soon be a referendum on banning the storage of militia weapons in private homes entirely. Supporters of the measure point to Switzerland’s rather high rate of gun suicides and to deaths attributed to accidents and domestic disputes. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/209 "2009-05-24T20:09:15Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I don’t carry to make the crime rate go down. I carry to stop a threat against my family, friends, others who need my help or myself. And all of the statistics say the same thing: that weapon you’re carrying is much more likely to end up shooting one of your family or friends than it is to end up protecting them from some imaginary criminal. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/210 "2009-05-24T20:10:03Z")
Pistols are a neccessary evil when it comes to self-defense. Rifles are the preferred weapon. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/211 "2009-05-24T20:12:35Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > And all of the statistics say the same thing: that weapon you’re carrying is much more likely to end up shooting one of your family or friends than it is to end up protecting them from some imaginary criminal. You’re going to have to provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/212 "2009-05-24T20:24:53Z")
**Brown Eyed Girl** Vis-a-vis your question: no, you wouldn’t know I was carrying. If you were my houseguest, you’d be made aware that there were loaded weapons in the house, but you wouldn’t randomly find one. They get safely put away when guests are around–adult or child. But that’s kind of a moot point because I’m responsible and I’m not a criminal. I jumped through all the hoops to get my permit. I understand that not being a “gun person” makes folks skittish about the things, but regardless, I assure you that you’re not in any greater danger around me. I’m also sensible enough to assure you that you’re not in any _less_ danger, either. Nor am I. Incidentally, I’m interested in the dichotomy I’m seeing here. On the one hand, it’s “paranoid” to carry a concealed handgun against an “imaginary” criminal, leading me to believe that American life is almost Utopian. On the other hand, though, guns are apparently enough of a problem that we should ban handguns altogether. Wait…what? You don’t get to have your cake and eat it, too. Either carrying a handgun is a reasonable measure against crime, or it’s not because that crime doesn’t exist with enough statistical evidence to support carrying–which of course leads to the question: if we’re “paranoid,” and crime is so low, then why go about banning anything at all? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/213 "2009-05-24T20:30:34Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > So you’re saying that I could never anticipate something going wrong? Or is it bad to anticipate something going wrong. Or nothing ever goes wrong? > What would be the downside to me detecting a threat, an ACTUAL threat, and stopping it before an innocent was hurt? I’m saying that you would likely misinterpet cues around you. No harm in that, except that you may waste a little perfectly good adrenaline. Or your attitude may convince someone else, also in orange, that _you_ are the bad guy? Now there’s an interesting idea. What happens if you and **BlakeTyner** suddenly meet up rounding a corner on a dark isolated street? Suddenly you’re face-to-face five feet apart while both are in condition orange. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/214 "2009-05-24T20:32:47Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Huh? How does that even make any sense? I noticed you cut off the rest of my sentence. Go ahead and go back and actually read it in its entirety. I’ll wait. > [@](#): > > Are you gonna be worried that maybe there’s child porn on the desktop in the room. Are you gonna worry there might be a dead body under the mattress? Child porn is a threat to me how? If there’s a dead body under the mattress, it’d be useful to know, doncha think? Did I ever say I spend every waking moment worried about these things? I can’t express concern without being painted as a freaked out worrywart? Give me a break. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Are you going to imagine an infinite number of possible things that you’d rather know about? Um, no. I thought we were talking about firearms here? Why are we changing the subject? Knowing somebody’s head is in your backpack would also be useful information to me even if you weren’t carrying a gun. If it makes you feel any better, that would actually elicit a more extreme reaction than just knowing you had a gun. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/215 "2009-05-24T20:33:15Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > **Brown Eyed Girl** > > Vis-a-vis your question: no, you wouldn’t know I was carrying. If you were my houseguest, you’d be made aware that there were loaded weapons in the house, but you wouldn’t randomly find one. They get safely put away when guests are around–adult or child. > > But that’s kind of a moot point because I’m responsible and I’m not a criminal. I jumped through all the hoops to get my permit. I understand that not being a “gun person” makes folks skittish about the things, but regardless, I assure you that you’re not in any greater danger around me. I’m also sensible enough to assure you that you’re not in any _less_ danger, either. Nor am I. > > Incidentally, I’m interested in the dichotomy I’m seeing here. On the one hand, it’s “paranoid” to carry a concealed handgun against an “imaginary” criminal, leading me to believe that American life is almost Utopian. > > On the other hand, though, guns are apparently enough of a problem that we should ban handguns altogether. > > Wait…what? > > You don’t get to have your cake and eat it, too. Either carrying a handgun is a reasonable measure against crime, or it’s not because that crime doesn’t exist with enough statistical evidence to support carrying–which of course leads to the question: if we’re “paranoid,” and crime is so low, then why go about banning anything at all? I think the detractors find it hard to believe that law abiding citizens would carry guns. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/216 "2009-05-24T20:40:05Z")
There seems to be some misunderstanding here… Condition Orange (or yellow, or whatever) doesn’t mean that we’re a second away from pulling a gun. If he and I were to suddenly round a corner and run into each other, we’d both evaluate the other and, seeing no immediate threat, go on our merry way. It seems to be common to believe that we’re just itching for the opportunity to shoot something, and that’s absolutely not the case. As I said before, I stay aware of my surroundings all the time and I’ve never even thought about going for my gun. This isn’t a case of people on edge, whipping out a gun whenever someone looks at them funny. I’ll say it again: the **only** way I’m pulling my gun is if I intend to use it. I will **only** intend to use it when I am directly threatened with death or serious bodily injury. What that means in plain terms is that for me to draw upon **jimpatro** , he’d have to be within 30 feet of me, with a weapon in plain sight, and in a posture sufficient for a reasonable person to believe that he was about to attack. Do I _expect_ a situation like that to ever happen to me (again)? No. That’s why, I think, the paranoia moniker is insulting. Do I believe it _could_ happen? Yes. Hence the insurance policy. Do I _want_ it to happen? No. Not by any circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/217 "2009-05-24T20:41:43Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > **Brown Eyed Girl** > > Vis-a-vis your question: no, you wouldn’t know I was carrying. If you were my houseguest, you’d be made aware that there were loaded weapons in the house, but you wouldn’t randomly find one. They get safely put away when guests are around–adult or child. > > But that’s kind of a moot point because I’m responsible and I’m not a criminal. I jumped through all the hoops to get my permit. I understand that not being a “gun person” makes folks skittish about the things, but regardless, I assure you that you’re not in any greater danger around me. I’m also sensible enough to assure you that you’re not in any _less_ danger, either. Nor am I. Fair enough. You sound pretty responsible about it and not at all arrogant towards around you who don’t share your wish to be armed. I can appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/218 "2009-05-24T20:42:54Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I think the detractors find it hard to believe that law abiding citizens would carry guns. I do know that a _lot_ of otherwise law abiding citizens become criminals by carrying guns where it’s prohibited by law. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/219 "2009-05-24T20:44:01Z")
**BrownEyedGirl** , the point is if you never know that gun was in the closet , how does it effect you? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/220 "2009-05-24T20:45:01Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I do know that a _lot_ of otherwise law abiding citizens become criminals by carrying guns where it’s prohibited by law. I was referring to licensed carriers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=12)