# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/261 "2009-05-24T22:57:00Z")
From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > adjective > > 1. highly excitable; unnaturally or acutely uneasy or apprehensive: to become nervous under stress. And from [KeepAndBearArms.com](http://KeepAndBearArms.com), the site linked by **BlakeTyner** : > [@](#): > > Condition Yellow is the state of alertness you enter when “something isn’t right,” such as when you are walking to your car in a dark parking lot. This is the level of alertness where you **begin to become nervous** , scanning your surroundings for anything dangerous, or when you look out the store window to see a group of local teenage toughs leaning on your car looking menacing. This is the state of alertness where your “fight-or-flight” response kicks in, and the adrenaline begins to surge. Seems similar to me. I wasn’t trying to insult you guys, I was trying to describe what I would think would be a normal person’s state in a situation where they’re alone at night on a dark street. Like “walking to your car in a dark parking lot”. I know I’d be nervous. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/262 "2009-05-24T22:58:07Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > \ > Wait a minute, DMV records are public? So if I wanted to find out what kind of car a certain person drives, or who a specific car is registered to, I could? How? > > I think it’d be fascinating to check out what kind of cars various celebrities drive! Or to contact the owner of a particularly cool custom car i see on the road! > > \ Sure you can, but you usually have to pay for it. [QUOTE=California Vehicle Code] Notification when your information is released California Vehicle Code (CVC) section 1810 allows the public to obtain your DMV information by filling out the Request for Driver License/Identification Card Information or the Request for Vehicle/Vessel Registration Information form (INF 70D/70R) and submitting the appropriate fee (provided on form) for each request. Any request for information submitted on forms INF 70D or INF 70R, CVC section 1810 (b) requires the department to notify the record subject of the request. CVC sections 1808.21 and 1810.2 allow government and commercial requesters who have an account with the department that has been approved to obtain DMV record information for a legitimate business use to access your information without notifying you. CVC section 1808.22 (c) requires the department to notify you when DMV releases your residence address to an attorney for a motor vehicle related incident. [/QUOTE] Some states are a little more stingy with it than others though. You can also get real property ownership information as well, many times its available on the web through the County Tax Assessor. You’d be amazed how much personally identifying information is publicly available. It’s kind of scary. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/263 "2009-05-24T22:59:33Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > It appears that you can’t…at least in TX. > > I did find some interesting statistics though, concerning the conviction rate of Texas CHL holders versus the rest of the state population. In sum: > > Total convictions in Texas (for all crime): 61,260 > Total convictions in Texas (for all crime) by CHL holders: 160 > > That’s .2612% > > Numbers from 2007; available (warning, PDF) [here.](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2007.pdf) > > There were all of 2 capital murders by Texas CHL holders in 2007. I wish every state would make this information easily accessible. Good job finding that, **Blake**. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/264 "2009-05-24T23:01:58Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > And from [KeepAndBearArms.com](http://KeepAndBearArms.com), the site linked by **BlakeTyner** : > > Seems similar to me. I wasn’t trying to insult you guys, I was trying to describe what I would think would be a normal person’s state in a situation where they’re alone at night on a dark street. Like “walking to your car in a dark parking lot”. > I know I’d be nervous. No, it’s cool **mangeorge,** we were just on different pages. As far as the hypothetical, when I bumped into **jim,** we’d both probably both go from green to yellow, be startled, determine there’s no threat, then move along–back to green. I guess what I’m saying is that misunderstandings resulting in CHL carriers seem not to happen. Per my statistic above, out of a little over 300,000 active CHLs in 2007, only 2 of them were convicted of capital murder. So while I’m not really willing to say that all those people with guns make society “safer” (they might, they might not…crime’s been on a downward trend for a while) I hope we can agree that it doesn’t seem to make things more dangerous, either. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/265 "2009-05-24T23:06:04Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I wish every state would make this information easily accessible. Good job finding that, **Blake**. No prob. They also have demographic information broken down a bunch of ways. In Dallas, for example, nearly 1 in 10 people has a CHL (I actually didn’t figure it’d be that high.) In Houston, that number jumps to nearly 1 in 5 having a CHL. And you’re right…though the drivers’ license information isn’t available here, property information certainly is. I’ve looked mine up a few times. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/266 "2009-05-24T23:09:45Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > It appears that you can’t…at least in TX. > > I did find some interesting statistics though, concerning the conviction rate of Texas CHL holders versus the rest of the state population. In sum: > > Total convictions in Texas (for all crime): 61,260 > Total convictions in Texas (for all crime) by CHL holders: 160 > > That’s .2612% > > Numbers from 2007; available (warning, PDF) [here.](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2007.pdf) > > There were all of 2 capital murders by Texas CHL holders in 2007. That’s interesting. I wonder what percentage of gun related crime is committed by each group. I think I’ll take a look at your PDF. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/267 "2009-05-24T23:14:25Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > …drivers’ license information isn’t available here… In theory, most of that info shouldn’t be readily available anywhere. There’s something called the [Driver’s Privacy Protection Act](http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C123.txt) (18 U.S.C. 2721-2725), passed in 1994. It prohibits States from disclosing personal information that drivers provide to get their licenses, stuff like the photograph, social security number, driver identification number, name, address, telephone number, and medical or disability information. Information on accidents, driving violations, and driver’s status is not protected, however. States must disclose personal information for certain purposes, and may disclose it for a long list of fourteen other purposes. All those exceptions tend to gut the Act, of course. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/268 "2009-05-24T23:15:24Z")
Bah! they didn’t break it down that way. A lot, percentage wise, of “icky” convictions are for CHL holders though. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/269 "2009-05-24T23:18:42Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > …“icky” convictions… ::heads off to check Black’s for a definition…:: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/270 "2009-05-24T23:21:08Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > No, it’s cool **mangeorge,** we were just on different pages. > > As far as the hypothetical, when I bumped into **jim,** we’d both probably both go from green to yellow, be startled, determine there’s no threat, then move along–back to green. > > I guess what I’m saying is that misunderstandings resulting in CHL carriers seem not to happen. Per my statistic above, out of a little over 300,000 active CHLs in 2007, only 2 of them were convicted of capital murder. > > So while I’m not really willing to say that all those people with guns make society “safer” (they might, they might not…crime’s been on a downward trend for a while) I hope we can agree that it doesn’t seem to make things more dangerous, either. I’m going to nitpick again, but what about self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/271 "2009-05-24T23:26:01Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I’m going to nitpick again, but what about self-defense? Could you elaborate on the question…I’m not sure I know what you’re asking. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/272 "2009-05-24T23:34:54Z")
AGG SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD 1,334 16 1.1994% IMPROPER PHOTO/VISUAL RECORDING AROUSE/GRA 16 2 12.5000% This one I don’t get: UNL CARRY HANDGUN LIC HOLDER 15 9 60.0000% A holder carrying wher he/she isn’t supposed to? ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/273 "2009-05-24T23:45:18Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > AGG SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD 1,334 16 1.1994% > > IMPROPER PHOTO/VISUAL RECORDING AROUSE/GRA 16 2 12.5000% > > This one I don’t get: > UNL CARRY HANDGUN LIC HOLDER 15 9 60.0000% > > A holder carrying wher he/she isn’t supposed to? Yeah, basically. That or intentionally failing to conceal. This is a bit out of date (the church/hospital thing isn’t in effect anymore, for one thing) but [here](http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/46.035.00.html) is that part of the penal code. It’s weird tho…how can anyone but a license holder be charged/convicted of that crime? My guess is that maybe the 15 were cases that got put in the wrong category…illegible paperwork, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/274 "2009-05-24T23:53:51Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Could you elaborate on the question…I’m not sure I know what you’re asking. I can see the problem. I know it’s not a conviction, but are self-defense or justified killings listed anywhere? And who decides if shootings are justified? I’ve heard it’s cops, but I doubt it. I’d have to guess the DA. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/275 "2009-05-24T23:59:18Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > There were all of 2 capital murders by Texas CHL holders in 2007. Well, there were also a couple of Criminally Negligent Homicides and 15 Deadly Conducts: [QUOTE=Texas Penal Code] § 22.05. DEADLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily injury. (b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly discharges a firearm at or in the direction of: (1) one or more individuals; or (2) a habitation, building, or vehicle and is reckless as to whether the habitation, building, or vehicle is occupied. (c) Recklessness and danger are presumed if the actor knowingly pointed a firearm at or in the direction of another whether or not the actor believed the firearm to be loaded. (d) For purposes of this section, “building,” “habitation,” and “vehicle” have the meanings assigned those terms by Section 30.01. (e) An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (b) is a felony of the third degree. [/QUOTE] This is your reckless idiots right here. I do have to say that the numbers look a lot better than I would have expected and correlate with the position that CHL holders tend to be more law abiding. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/276 "2009-05-24T23:59:28Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I can see the problem. > I know it’s not a conviction, but are self-defense or justified killings listed anywhere? > And who decides if shootings are justified? I’ve heard it’s cops, but I doubt it. I’d have to guess the DA. I remember now, it’s the cop’s discression whether or not to arrest. I think. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/277 "2009-05-25T00:14:48Z")
Yeah, a lot of it resides on the police officer’s discretion. If the DA wants to try for a prosecution, he can still run it by the grand jury, but if they think it was a good shoot, then the shooter is no-billed and there’s no record of it. Finding self defense shooting statistics anywhere is difficult, because a lot of times it’s self-reported, a lot of places don’t tally the statistic at all, etc. I’ve seen estimates that range from the thousands to a million or more per year in the U.S., but nothing reliable. I do know that in some statistical breakdowns of “homicide,” that justifiable homicide is included. Off the top of my head (a lot of my students do gun control papers every semester) the statistic that seems to be most common is about 30,000 gun deaths per year in the U.S. Once you exclude suicide, justifiable homicide, and justified police shootings, IIRC, the number is about 11,000. This is apropos of nothing, really, but if you haven’t seen it, [here](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html) is a NY Times breakdown of daily gun deaths. If nothing else, it orients everyone vis-a-vis perspective. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/278 "2009-05-25T01:42:37Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Yes, but less so. Sure, someone might cut me off in traffic. But that person is less of a threat to me than someone who might cut me off in traffic and/or shoot me. > > When nobody’s armed, one major source of danger is eliminated. > > Situational awareness? Well, of course - no one can survive if he wanders around blindly. But that’s not the same thing as sizing up every person who comes within 30 feet of you, and mentally “gauging… sight lines.” I mentally gauge passing lines when I drive. It’s also fun. Keeps me awake. And I maintain that a 1 ton car to N ton tractor trailer (say, with a open top box that stuff keeps flying out of) is plenty dangerous in and of itself. Guns add relatively little to the danger issue. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/279 "2009-05-25T02:13:37Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I mentally gauge passing lines when I drive. It’s also fun. Keeps me awake. That’s not what I was referring to. I found it alarming that someone carrying a concealed weapon, when someone approached closer than 30 feet, was mentally figuring out whether he could squeeze off a round cleanly, without hitting something else unintentionally. > [@](#): > > Guns add relatively little to the danger issue. You’re not serious, are you? Apparently, you’ve missed the whole phenomenon of road-rage induced shootings. It was in all the papers. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/280 "2009-05-25T02:27:18Z")
Trust me when I say that, when compared to a 18 wheeler with an open top and things flying out of it, I am not so concerned about guns. (Usually gravel. Sometimes cardboard. Sometimes… heavier things.) Happens on a weekly basis. Or the occasional bit of fun when a retread decides to let go and someone lurches a bit and a huge black strip of _something_ goes flying with a sound like a cannon. Or the guy who decides to merge into places that cars are in already. Road-rage induced shooting not such a big deal, relatively speaking. Happens sometimes, often a cop doing it. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23rage.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23rage.html) but, you know, if you get in your lane properly, it’s generally cool. That’s part of being aware when driving, using your car to communicate your intention to merge… and not being a rude sumbitch who drives down the breakdown lane to try to get in. Any way you look at it, road rage induced shooting… well, generally, less of a big deal than road rage in the first place. And, again, being aware can keep you out of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=15)