# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/281 "2009-05-25T03:38:06Z")
I do find it funny that every discussion of guns on SD ends up the exact same way without question… A distinct line drawn between pro-gunners and anti-gunners. Predictability is what we’re after, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/282 "2009-05-25T03:59:31Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I do find it funny that every discussion of guns on SD ends up the exact same way without question… A distinct line drawn between pro-gunners and anti-gunners. Predictability is what we’re after, right? 🙂 You haven’t read all the posts in this threadm have you? Naughty naughty, **Brandon**. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/283 "2009-05-25T04:07:54Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > You haven’t read all the posts in this threadm have you? Naughty naughty, **Brandon**. I have to agree with that, **mangeorge**. The thread got a bit heated, but I think everyone has been able to discuss the issue pretty well, on the whole, without devolving into a “gun grabber!” vs. “cro-magnon!” screaming match. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/284 "2009-05-25T04:12:46Z")
I once had an 18 wheel flatbed hauling baled hay loose his load in front of me. It was on HWY 99, passing through Bakersfield. Imagine about a million or so of 110 lb footballs playing dodge-em with you at 70 mph, many of them bursting. There were no video cameras then, but I wished I had one anyway. Wish I had a 12 ga. I’d a shot them varmits, one and all. 😛 The part about the bales is true. Had to get on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/285 "2009-05-25T04:30:57Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > I think the chances of encountering someone meeting that description in a National Park are somewhere between zero and nil. Just a gut feeling, granted… You’ve obviously never had any firsthand experience with a Park concessionaire. Of all the two-legged varmints that you are apt to encounter in a National Park, by far the most dangerous are the concession employees. They’re not going to mug you on a trail, but they will steal everything they can from your cabin when you’re not there. How do they get in? They have the keys—they work in housekeeping. Don’t their supervisors keep an eye on them? No, because they’re the ones doing it. They also sell drugs, and you bet your bottom dollar they have guns. They all have guns, sometimes sawed-off shotguns and other illegally modified weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/286 "2009-05-25T04:43:33Z")
I find that many of the people who oppose lawfully-carried guns in national parks not only know very little about guns, they also know very little about national parks. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/287 "2009-05-25T04:56:15Z")
I hesitate to tell this story because of a) its anecdotal nature, and b) because it could come off like something I’m pulling out of my ass to prove a point, but I guess I’ll go ahead and share. Scout’s honor–it’s true. When I was an undergrad, I majored in English and double-minored in religion and psychology. I had a phenomenal Intro to Psych professor, Dr. Robert Benefield, whose class was a lot tougher, according to those in the know, than some of the other profs. He was the type of guy that gave insanely difficult exams, but actually taught you the material–and in an often funny, always interesting, way. So, after that class, I signed up for a couple of other classes that he taught–neurological (biological) psychology as a senior, and, before that, a course called Behavior Modification. It dealt a lot with reinforcement, shaping, things like that. Dr. Benefield had worked for many years as a counselor for troubled teens, as well as with severely developmentally disabled folks, and his stories were always good. But senior year, in bio psych, was the first time I ever heard him talk about having a gun to his head. I can’t be sure it was in a national park, but it was a park in Arkansas, up in the “mountains.” (Mountains being a relative term for the Ozarks.) I believe, though I’m not 100% sure, that he went up there after his first wife died. Sort of a Zen thing. Well, he’d left his campsite for a hike, and when he returned there was a Bad Dude there. The Bad Dude had a gun–Dr. B was unarmed. I don’t recall if he told us what the motive was for this guy…I vaguely recall it being a drugs/money thing, but I could be wrong. I do know that the guy had Dr. B kneel down on the ground and then put a handgun to his head. Dr. B, scared out of his wits but oddly not terrified, talked to this man. As a Christian and as a psychologist. I don’t know what he said, but the guy eventually left. I really don’t do the story justice. And of course it’s an exceedingly rare thing, but I’ve been thinking about it for a while due to the original subject matter of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/288 "2009-05-25T04:57:10Z")
Anyone fired the new Ruger LCR? I think you could take it to a federal park. 😉 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/289 "2009-05-25T05:13:02Z")
Yeah, for attacking chipmunks. I do have the LCP. It’s a great BUG. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/290 "2009-05-25T05:19:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I find that many of the people who oppose lawfully-carried guns in national parks not only know very little about guns, they also know very little about national parks. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve spent a lot of time in NPS “units,” over 40 of them by a quick, rough count, plus a rafting/hiking trip in ANWR. In the larger parks, the bulk of my time was spent in the back country - I don’t think I’ve ever camped in the “car camping” areas. But in the smaller places, I was doing what everyone else was - parking the car and wandering into the visitor center, doing some day-hiking, and so on. Add to that a bunch of state parks, a lot of visits to Indian reservations (geez, talk about remote!), and some Canadian parks. I’ve camped in grizzly bear country (alone for a week) and Alaskan brown bear territory (paw-prints the size of a dinner plate in the sand next to the tent), have come face-to-face with black bears (hell, I get those in my own yard these days), and have gotten too close to a huge bull moose. I know what it’s like out there. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/291 "2009-05-25T08:18:36Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I recently had a conversation with a customer at work about my desire to hike some of the AT. He informed me that if I decide to go, I should carry a gun in my pack because there are criminals that lie in wait along the trail who will follow you at a distance and attempt to steal all your stuff once you set up camp. I have to say it took me aback that this was the first thing out of his mouth about the AT. Once I got home, I tried to find information about this rampant lawlessness of the AT and predictably, there are a few isolated incidents, but it’s nothing akin to the hotbed of crime he portrayed it to be. Just wanted to add here – I spent most of 2008 on the AT, and while I never came close to needing a gun, there were several times when it occurred to me that I was well out of the reach of any outside help should someone with bad intentions come along. I would have liked it very much if there were a handful of concealed-carry licensees around. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/292 "2009-05-25T11:31:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > …there were several times when it occurred to me that I was well out of the reach of any outside help should someone with bad intentions come along. You were also out of the reach of outside help should you suddenly suffer from a cerebral hemorrhage. Did you think you needed to have a neurosurgeon with you? You were also out of reach of outside help should you be attacked by a swarm of rattle snakes. Did you think you needed large doses of antivenom with you? The point, of course, is that the chances of running into someone with “bad intentions” on the AT are so remote, they’re not really worth spending much time thinking about. Most people, it seems, are very poor judges of relative risk. You were almost certainly in far more danger driving your car to the trailhead than you were at any time on the trail. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/293 "2009-05-25T12:43:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I find that many of the people who oppose lawfully-carried guns in national parks not only know very little about guns, they also know very little about national parks. Is that a fact? > [@](#): > > Groups signing a letter with that request included the nonprofit **National Parks Conservation Association** , The Humane Society of the United States, Violence Policy Center, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and the Legal Community Against Violence. > … > “Assault rifles have no place at campfire talks and ranger walks in our national parks,” said NPCA associate director and **former park ranger Bryan Faehner**. “This rider is a vote against the safety of American families in our national parks. The U.S. Senate disregarded the concerns of national park rangers and former Park Service directors who want American families and wildlife to remain safe in our national parks. We hope that President Obama won’t do the same.” > … > John Waterman, **president of the U.S. Park Rangers Lodge, Fraternal Order of Police** , said the measure, if signed into law, "would create confusion for visitors who may not know what law would apply to the national park they are visiting, and would further complicate the job of America’s understaffed national park ranger corps. This is astoundingly misguided and presents a clear threat to not only visitor and ranger safety, but to wildlife.” [http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/05/coalition-groups-ask-president-obama-halt-move-allow-weapons-national-parks](http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/05/coalition-groups-ask-president-obama-halt-move-allow-weapons-national-parks) > [@](#): > > NATIONAL PARK RANGERS AND PARK ADVOCATES OUTRAGED BY VOTES ALLOWING LOADED GUNS IN NATIONAL PARKS > Statement by Bill Wade, Chair, Executive Council, Coalition of National Park Service Retirees: “Passage of this legislation that would allow firearms of all kinds in national parks is an absolute travesty. There is simply no need for it, given the extremely low risks that visitors face in national parks compared with everywhere else. Legislators who voted for this Amendment now have to live with the fact that they have, in fact, increased the risk to visitors and employees, as well as the risk to wildlife and some cultural resources. Moreover, they’ve just contributed to diminishing the specialness of this country’s National Park System. We hope the American people register their disappointment in the actions of these legislators.” > Statement by Scot McElveen, President, Association of National Park Rangers: “Members of the ANPR respect the will of congress and their authority to pass law, but we believe this is a fundamental reversal from what preceding congresses created the national park system for,” said Scot McElveen, a retired chief park ranger and president of the Association of National Park Rangers. “Park wildlife, including some rare or endangered species, will face increased threats by visitors with firearms who engage in impulse or opportunistic shooting,” said McElveen. > Statement by John Waterman, President, U.S. Park Rangers Lodge, Fraternal Order of Police: “One should ask, what do guns have to do with credit cards? We are disappointed that congress chose to disregard the safety of US Park Rangers, the most assaulted federal officer, and forgo the environmental process set up by them to assure the protection of our national parks. If signed by Obama, this will clearly be a change in the president’s rhetoric towards taking better care of our environment and protecting federal employees. > > Statement by Theresa Pierno, Executive Vice President, National Parks Conservation Association: “We are disappointed in the members of the House and Senate who allowed this amendment to pass, as well as President Obama. By not taking a stand to prevent this change, they have sacrificed public safety and national park resources, in favor of the political agenda of the National Rifle Association. This amendment had no hearing or review, and will increase the risk of poaching, vandalism of historic park treasures, and threats to park visitors and staff.” > > “These are special protected places, where millions of American families and international visitors can view magnificent animals and majestic landscapes and experience our nation’s history, including sites where lives were lost to preserve our American ideals. The Reagan Administration’s regulation requiring simply requires that guns carried into these iconic places be unloaded and put away is a time-tested, limited and reasonable restriction to carry out an important and legitimate goal of protecting and respecting our national parks, monuments and battlefields. It is a tremendously sad day that it has been thrown out by political leaders from whom we expect more.” > > ### From [here](http://www.rangerfop.com/newgunlaw.htm). Care to rephrase? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/294 "2009-05-25T14:22:47Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > You were also out of the reach of outside help should you suddenly suffer from a cerebral hemorrhage. Did you think you needed to have a neurosurgeon with you? You were also out of reach of outside help should you be attacked by a swarm of rattle snakes. Did you think you needed large doses of antivenom with you? You may want to check your reading, champ; I’m pretty sure I said “I never came close to needing a gun” but that I wouldn’t have minded at all if others had them (actually, I think I know one who did). I never needed antivenom, but I certainly would have liked it if someone else had some. > [@](#): > > The point, of course, is that the chances of running into someone with “bad intentions” on the AT are so remote, they’re not really worth spending much time thinking about. Actually, there was in fact one guy who was arrested on the trail because he was making violent threats at people. (Luckily, this was in Shenandoah, so Rangers were handy; not all parts of the trail are so accessible). I also know people who had food stolen from them by bears that showed no fear of humans. I imagine they would have been a little relieved had someone in the shelter had a gun, even if they didn’t use it. > [@](#): > > Most people, it seems, are very poor judges of relative risk. Some people, it seems, are very poor readers and inclined to strawman. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/295 "2009-05-25T14:32:50Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > The short answer is that yes, that’s true. And because it’s true it would be an enormous benefit to law enforcement. If only outlaws have guns, that means the police don’t have to wait for you to do something bad with a gun to arrest you. The mere fact that you possess one means that you are, by definition, a criminal, and can be taken off the streets. I have a problem with this. It does not stop Bad Guys. All it would do, is create a whole new class of “criminals”, who had not been criminals before such a law. It also punishes people who have never committed a crime. It assumes everyone is guilty, as a default condition. It would do nothing about actually disarming criminals. I don’t believe any group of law abiding citizens should have a right or a privilege taken away just because of a few assholes (the bad guys) don’t know how to act. If it’s only a matter of making things easier for the police, then there are a lot of things we can do. We can get rid of the requirement to have arrest warrants. We can do away with requirements for probable cause and/or evidence. We can get rid of the whole presumption of innocence. You are assuming all people are guilty, before the fact. “police don’t have to wait for you to do something bad” Do you have any idea what a bad idea that is? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/296 "2009-05-25T15:07:44Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > The mere fact that you possess one means that you are, by definition, a criminal, and can be taken off the streets. Or, I guess, dragged from your home. What a utopia! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/297 "2009-05-25T15:14:49Z")
There is a really simple solution here. Early Out and Brown Eyed Girl simply need not own any guns if they don’t want any. Those of us who do carry concealed will continue to do so as we have all along. There is enough crime in parks to warrant the minimal effort involved in carrying a concealed hangun, IMO. Wild animal attacks are a non-issue. Everybody I know who has been attacked by an animal has been attacked by man’s best friend, the domestic dog. A mid-size 9mm, .40 S&W, or .357 magnum in a decent holster on a good belt can be carried all day with zero inconvenience or discomfort. If I don’t need it, so what? If I do need it, I have it. I keep a blanket, water, and first aid kit in my car for the same kind of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/298 "2009-05-25T16:24:26Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > The point, of course, is that the chances of running into someone with “bad intentions” on the AT are so remote, they’re not really worth spending much time thinking about. > > . If you folks (general you, not specifically early out you) arent worried about the rare random encounter with the “bad” guys, why for gods sake are you worried about the EVEN MORE RARE random encounter with a “bad” CHLer? You can’t have it both ways and still make anysense that I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/299 "2009-05-25T17:03:20Z")
Are we to slide down that slippery slope to Required Gun Ownership, like that town in Georgia (and others) have? Shall we be mandated to post a sign on our homes stating that there are no guns in the home? I guess I’ve been in too many gun debates. Both of these are results of debate. The first is fact and the latter has been proposed. Generally, common sense is the rule. As it is, I have come to believe, in this law. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/300 "2009-05-25T17:19:18Z")
> [@furt](#): > > You may want to check your reading, champ; I’m pretty sure I said “I never came close to needing a gun” but that I wouldn’t have minded at all if others had them (actually, I think I know one who did). What you said was, “…there were several times when it occurred to me that I was well out of the reach of any outside help should someone with bad intentions come along.” This is the strawman. You’re positing an occurrence that has almost no chance of happening. If someone else having a gun would have made you feel better, it would have been an entirely misplaced sense of well-being. Since the threat is well-nigh nonexistent, the “remedy” for it is unnecessary. > [@](#): > > Actually, there was in fact one guy who was arrested on the trail because he was making violent threats at people. One guy. Out of how many? Conclusion: you’re safer on the AT than you are in any city in the world, or in most large towns. You don’t need protection in the parks. ETA: You’re not allowed to shoot a bear because he’s stealing your food. You get out of his way, and say goodbye to your Twinkies. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=16)