# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/121 "2009-05-23T17:25:51Z")
I’m way too old for all that Dan’l Boone stuff. If I go to any park, I’ll likely stay at the nearest nice comfy lodge and take the shuttle to all the tourist points. Yosemite’s good for that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/122 "2009-05-23T17:26:24Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I grew up around rattle snakes. Believe me, they’re easy to avoid. In fact, I’ve _never_ had one chase me. 😛 I lived in the Mojave Desert in my teens and early-20s. While I did see a large number of sidewinders years previously when visiting the Daggett area, the only rattlesnake I saw when I was living in the western part in Northern L.A. County was at a rifle competition. A guy shot one. Then he cleaned it, threw it on the grill, and ate it. I completely agree that venomous snakes are a very minor threat. Still, there’s always the chance of an unfortunate encounter. I can think of a few scenarios where it might be useful to have a gun, just in case. Aside from snakes, what about rabid animals? I’ve never seen one, but aren’t they occasionally aggressive? Someone mentioned shooting a squirrel that had bitten a child so that it could be determined if it was rabid. Sadly, the real reason I think most people would want to carry a gun is to protect against other people. It seems the numbers of people who rob or assault or kill, or are engaged in illegal activities on public lands and will do violence to continue doing them have increased over the years. [/QUOTE] > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I usually try to be helpful to educating people on these boards about gun issues. Genuine curiosity will inspire me to do some work to assist someone in that way. But you appear to be disguising an agenda as curiosity… I think for the most part **Brown Eyed Girl** has been respectful, and that she has listened to our arguments. She may still be opposed to the new law and our views, but she has stated that she is reconsidering her position. At least her views may be modulated by respectful discussion. **Brown Eyed Girl** : One thing to remember when engaging in discussions with gun owners is that we have been demonized for two or three decades now. We have been subjected to charges that we’re mentally unbalanced, that we’re just _itching_ for a chance to shoot a bad guy, that we’re liable to start shooting at the tiniest insult, that we’re stupid… You name it. So I hope you can see how some of us can get a little touchy sometimes. Most of us are quite happy to educate people – ‘fight ignorance’, if you will – if given the chance. It seems to me that while you are opposed to the new legislation, you are making an effort to understand ‘the other side’ and that’s a good thing. 🙂 Just so everyone knows where I’m coming from, I don’t hunt. I don’t carry a firearm. I am not in fear of being targeted by a criminal, nor of our government turning Authoritarian. I haven’t been shooting in about three years. But I do have a bit of a collection, and it includes ‘Scary Black Guns’. I have an interest in History, and of How Things Work. And they make nifty film props from time to time. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/123 "2009-05-23T17:31:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Edit: I’m seeing people here say that this law isn’t limited to legal CCW holders, is that true? I was under the impression it meant that federal parks would be removed from the list of places you were banned from carrying even if you had a permit, not that it simply allows anyone unlicensed carry in those areas. The law says nothing whatsoever about CCW, or concealed, or permits. It makes the park land just a piece of land, exactly like any other piece of land in that state (in regards to guns, that is). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/124 "2009-05-23T17:40:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I think for the most part **Brown Eyed Girl** has been respectful, and that she has listened to our arguments. She may still be opposed to the new law and our views, but she has stated that she is reconsidering her position. At least her views may be modulated by respectful discussion. Fair enough. I haven’t slept for more than 4 hours at a time in two weeks and I’ve been irritable. It was the “what purpose could they serve except combat?” thing that set me off. > [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > The law says nothing whatsoever about CCW, or concealed, or permits. It makes the park land just a piece of land, exactly like any other piece of land in that state (in regards to guns, that is). So basically it just takes federal parks off the list of specific places of gun prohibition like federal buildings, courthouses, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/125 "2009-05-23T18:28:47Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Although, I will say that I disagree with your position that arming yourself is a basic human right. IMHO, you have the basic human right to life and to be safe. How you go about protecting that basic human right is a right granted to you by your government. Whether and how you choose to exercise your government right to protect yourself is your business. When it becomes my business by putting my life and safety at risk, I have an interest in your rights. :dubious: One could as easily argue that freedom of speech isn’t a basic human right, only one granted by government. In a sense, one would be right: when it comes down to it, how can we defend any sort of objective “natural” rights? If I weren’t an atheist I might comfort myself with the idea that my idea of human rights was laid down by my favorite omnipotent deity, but the objective value of this viewpoint falls apart the moment somebody else disagrees with me about the nature of God. I believe that “human rights” are precisely and exclusively what the specific individual humans in question are willing and able to uphold for themselves. I also believe that the idea that _any_ rights are “granted” by governments is a highly destructive perversion of the proper nature of government, that any just government can only derive its powers from the consent of the governed. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/126 "2009-05-23T18:30:05Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What do you mean by ‘Parks’? And no, it’s not the proven responsible CCW holders I believe will create more crime. It’s the impulsive ones. And the angry ones. And the stupid ones. But nobody like that actually goes to the trouble of getting a permit, do they? Of course not. If they are permitted, they are all perfectly safe. Apparently they (CCWers) are safer than armed cops if anothers posters info is actually correct . Do you worry about armed cops capping your behind? If not, why the worry about CCWers who have been around you all the time ALREADY without you knowing it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/127 "2009-05-23T18:31:23Z")
H.r. 627 > [@](#): > > sec. 512. Protecting americans from violent crime. > > (a) congressional findings- congress finds the following: > > (1) the second amendment to the constitution provides that ‘the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed’. > > (2) section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, code of federal regulations, provides that ‘except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) using a weapon, trap or net’. > > (3) section 27.42 of title 50, code of federal regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the united states may not ‘possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges’ of the united states fish and wildlife service. > > (4) the regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with federal and state laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of– > > (a) the national park system; and > > (b) the national wildlife refuge system. > > (5) the existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the national park system and the national wildlife refuge system entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the national park system and the national wildlife refuge system. > > (6) although the bush administration issued new regulations relating to the second amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the national park system and national wildlife refuge system that went into effect on january 9, 2009– > > (a) on march 19, 2009, the united states district court for the district of columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and > > (b) the new regulations– > > (i) are under review by the administration; and > > (ii) may be altered. > > (7) congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the second amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of national park system land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the united states fish and wildlife service. > > (8) the federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the national park system or the national wildlife refuge system should not be infringed. > > (b) protecting the right of individuals to bear arms in units of the national park system and the national wildlife refuge system- the secretary of the interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the national park system or the national wildlife refuge system if– > > (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and > > (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the state in which the unit of the national park system or the national wildlife refuge system is located. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/128 "2009-05-23T18:35:57Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Prior to the legislation, if a park ranger comes upon someone in the backcountry or wildlife refuge with a high-powered rifle (or whatever weapon you hunt with), the likelihood is that he’s found a poacher (or drug runner, perhaps) and can further investigate and arrest based upon the illegal firearm. Now, he has no legal basis, if the gunholder is legally permitted to carry the firearm. It makes it slightly-significantly (?) more difficult for LE to protect these areas. Of course, I hope that this is not the case, but park rangers and police are not thrilled about this legislation either.. In CA they list what few weapons you are allowed to carry right on your CCW, i had three handguns listed. I did not nor could not list a shotgun or highpower rifle. All the law does is take the Federal Parks off a special list and make them complaint with the other parks in that state. In CA, if you are carrying a hunting rifle and other gear in a no hunting area, the ranger can (and will) stop you and ask what the hell you are doing, and escort you out. Just like what he’d do out of season. If you are hunting or appear to be hunting, you have to be in a legal area for hunting, with a legal license. **wevets** I already have mention the one time I used my handgun to “protect” someone- I shot a ground squirrel that had bitten a small child. This was so that they’d be able to check the squirrel body for rabies, rather than either take a risk or subject the child to some very painful injections. No ranger will shed a tear over one of the heavily over-populated california ground squirrel population biting the dust. In fact they said I did exactly the right thing. And, as for Mountain Lions there was recently a couple attacks out here where a companion or a bystander rushed in and was able to fight off the lion and rescue the victim. Personally here I’d prefer an assengi and shield :p, but I think a gun fired into the air might just cause the cougar to abandon it’s prey and run off. I agree that if you are the subject of a puma attack, your best bet is a knife, as you usually won’t even see the cougar until after it has pounced. One other danger out here is feral pigs, who when they have their litter with them can get crazy. If momma pig decided I was a danger to her babies, then hell yes, I’d want something bigger than my hiking staff and small knife to defend myself with. And of course the ranges hate the pigs and would love them to be killed. (Introduced species). IMHO, a gun is not a good defense vs a rattler, however. Either he has bit you already, in which case no use shooting, or he hasn’t in which case just go away and leave him alone. One time one of the rangers and I used two stafft to move a younger rattler out of a camping area into a much less accessible area- but that was also to protect the snake, too.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/129 "2009-05-23T19:39:38Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > With the exception of Alaska, Montana, and Wyoming (the only U.S. states with Grizzly populations,) I’m having a lot of trouble figuring out what animals you think people would be defending themselves against. _Pffffft_—in the entire 99 year history of Glacier NP, there have been only eight confirmed grizzly bear attacks on humans. In the entire history of Sequoia NP, _nobody_ has ever been killed or even been seriously injured by a bear. Black bears are like big puddy tats. They can’t see worth shit, and they’re terrified of their own shadow. True story—my sister got a call to respond to a problem bear in the Crescent Meadows picnic area. When she drove up, there was a huge Hispanic cholo guy cowering on top of a picnic table with a look of sheer terror on his face, while the cholo’s kid was sitting on the bench nonchalantly feeding grapes to a diminutive, 135-pound female bear. My sister shooed the bear away and admonished the kid about feeding the bears. She said she had never seen a man look more emasculated. She said they packed up their crap and hightailed it back to South-Central LA while she was still sitting in the truck filling out the report. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/130 "2009-05-23T19:51:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Yes! That’s it! Did I mention I absolutely love westerns? I love that scene in some Clint Eastwood movie, the one with the warring families. The bad guys won’t apologize to his mule, so he guns them down. He was shooting about a fast as a machine gun, every shot was an instant kill, and I don’t know how many bullets his “six shooter” fired. Gotta love the movies 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/131 "2009-05-23T19:53:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He was shooting about a fast as a machine gun, every shot was an instant kill, and I don’t know how many bullets his “six shooter” fired. Gotta love the movies 😃 You mean… the movie _lied?_ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/132 "2009-05-23T19:55:39Z")
I don’t think I’d carry **Washoe’s** ideas to The Arctic without a guide or a thorough understanding of polar bear lifestyle. 😉 Same for grizzlys, actually. And brown bears. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/133 "2009-05-23T20:04:35Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I don’t think I’d carry **Washoe’s** ideas to The Arctic without a guide or a thorough understanding of polar bear lifestyle. 😉 Same for grizzlys, actually. And brown bears. I wouldn’t either, and I’m no guide, expert, or great outdoorsman. I don’t care if it’s the Arctic or not (and yes polar bears will hunt people), a bear (polar, grizzly or black) can and will kill a person with ridiculous ease, and you can’t outrun one. If I ever did go to bear country, it would be with a guide, and at least one of us would be appropriately armed. Let someone else be Number Nine on the hit parade. I used to chat with a guy (I forget his name) on some photo net occasionally, Big time bear photographer, knew all about bears, considered himself an expert, claimed he could tell their intentions. He took some absolutely beautiful photos. A bear eventually killed him. No bear is a big cuddly putty tat. Even a relatively small one can literally tear a human apart. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/134 "2009-05-23T20:06:48Z")
Back in the day you _always_ tried to keep the biter alive and captured, so the authorities could observe it for signs of rabies. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/135 "2009-05-23T20:12:14Z")
Again, _pffffft_—more people have been killed by deer in Yosemite and Sequoia than have been killed by bears. That’s right, folks—Bambi is Public Enemy # 1. If you’re hiking in the backcountry and cross paths with one of those bob-tailed bastards, shoot first and ask questions later. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/136 "2009-05-23T20:30:55Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Again, _pffffft_—more people have been killed by deer in Yosemite and Sequoia than have been killed by bears. That’s right, folks—Bambi is Public Enemy # 1. If you’re hiking in the backcountry and cross paths with one of those bob-tailed bastards, shoot first and ask questions later. The lesson there is, stay away from the deer too. But ynow you’ve went too far, and I’m gonna pull the old GD “cite” card on you. Show us deer are "public enemy #1. Bambi is a product of a writer’s imagination. (You’re not supposed to put a space between the “#” and the number it refers to, are you?) Quit saying “_pffffft_”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/137 "2009-05-23T20:35:02Z")
[Does this count](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNGGbozilko&feature=related)? [Or this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7p_sTmfCtA)? (Starts at 00:54.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/138 "2009-05-23T20:36:19Z")
When you’re walking down the sidewalk and a guy steps up with a gun demanding money and you offer him a bullet instead, that’s combat. It’s not just what happens when you’re watching those war movies you love, **BrownEyedGirl**. Assault weapons are the perfect defense against home invasion. Again, not just relegated to war. And so on and so on. **BrownEyedGirl** you really need to stop discussing firearms or their use when you all you really know is what you’ve recently learned in this thread. Those of us who carry, do so in defense of our families, friends, ourselves and third parties who might need our help. No one can say when trouble might come our way. Maybe, hopefully, never. We carry wherever we go when the law allows. And leave it in the car when it’s legally required. But the more often we can carry, the better. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/139 "2009-05-23T20:50:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Does this count](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNGGbozilko&feature=related)? > > [Or this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7p_sTmfCtA)? (Starts at 00:54.) > > 😃 😃 You know better than that, **Johnny**. 😉 Now, does _anybody_ have a cite for **Washoe’s** Bambi claim? C’mon, help him out. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/140 "2009-05-23T21:01:22Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > When you’re walking down the sidewalk and a guy steps up with a gun demanding money and you offer him a bullet instead, that’s combat. Just a question, but are you sure you can get your gun out, pointed, and fire before the already ready bad guy can squeeze off a round or two? Because I might be the third party half a block down the street behind him. Just asking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=8)