# Concealed guns in national parks? Loaded weapons in wildlife refuges? Whaaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301 "2009-05-22T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/141 "2009-05-23T21:04:36Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > 😃 > You know better than that, **Johnny**. 😉 > Now, does _anybody_ have a cite for **Washoe’s** Bambi claim? C’mon, help him out. Well, there was That Guy on some “stupid people” show. He doused himself with musk or deer piss, or something. A buck showed up, figured out That Guy wasn’t the doe he was expecting, and kicked his ass to the curb (so to speak). As is always the case, nobody wants to be That Guy 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/142 "2009-05-23T21:07:23Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > 😃 > You know better than that, **Johnny**. 😉 > Now, does _anybody_ have a cite for **Washoe’s** Bambi claim? C’mon, help him out. You know I have a problem being serious! 😃 But anyway… [N.Y. man killed by deer he kept on his property](http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?id=2660561) [Georgia Man Attacked and Killed by Deer](http://www.volunteertv.com/national/headlines/10323602.html). Now, I haven’t done an exhaustive search; but it may be possible that more people are killed by deer in the U.S. than by other vertebrates – for a given definition of ‘killed by’. I would guess that most people ‘killed by deer’ are killed when they run into them in their cars. (The humans’ cars; not the deer’s ones.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/143 "2009-05-23T21:08:26Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Well, there was That Guy on some “stupid people” show. He doused himself with musk or deer piss, or something. A buck showed up, figured out That Guy wasn’t the doe he was expecting, and kicked his ass to the curb (so to speak). Didn’t something similar happen to Danny Bonaduce? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/144 "2009-05-23T21:29:38Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Just a question, but are you sure you can get your gun out, pointed, and fire before the already ready bad guy can squeeze off a round or two? Because I might be the third party half a block down the street behind him. > Just asking. Good question. Been robbed before. And some others who have been robbed can relate a similar story. Bad guy first walks up with gun pointed at you. Just to get you really scared. Then he’ll pull it into his body to keep passersby from seeing it. Robbery is one of the supidest things to do for a living. The robber needs for you to reach into your pocket. Action is quicker than reaction. In a flash a gun can be drawn and aimed quite easily at this point blank range. I wasn’t armed at the time and thankfully the BG didn’t feel like killing me for the heck of it. One of the rules of firearms, and I think the most important, is: Know you’re target and what’s beyond it. If there’s a chance of hitting other people, you don’t take the shot. You maneuver to a better position. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/145 "2009-05-23T21:35:00Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > Guns are allowed in state parks, and in national forests. What problems has this caused? Why should national parks be different? > > Seriously, what is the difference between state parks and national parks, other than which branch of government controls them? I live in Oregon. There are many state parks, national forests, wilderness areas, etc. This new law affects ONE area in the whole big ole state: Crater Lake National Park. It simply brings the gun rules there in line with the rest of the state. That’s it. Even our notoriously liberal representatives voted for it. Because that’s all it does, brings the gun rules in one area into line with the rest of the state. Gun hysteria aside, it is a very simple and reasonable adjustment. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/146 "2009-05-23T21:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > But now you’ve went too far, and I’m gonna pull the old GD “cite” card on you. Sorry, but I may just have to pull the classic GD ‘my post is my cite’ card. (Damn—I’ve _always_ wanted to say that.) Unfortunately, I’m just parroting Ranger folklore that has been passed down from season to season as part of our oral tradition. It’s a line that I repeated hundreds of times during my seasonal stint in Sequoia NP in 1989. You’d be amazed at how many cabin campers are afraid to go out in the middle of the night to use the public lavatory. There were many, many happy bladders in Sequoia that year thanks to my concerted efforts. [QUOTE=] (You’re not supposed to put a space between the “#” and the number it refers to, are you?) [/QUOTE] Shit. I think you’re right. ☹ > [@mangeorge](#): > > Quit saying “_pffffft_”. In the interest of message board professionalism, I’ll refrain from saying “_pffffft_” for the remainder of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/147 "2009-05-24T00:44:37Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I love that scene in some Clint Eastwood movie, the one with the warring families. The bad guys won’t apologize to his mule, so he guns them down. He was shooting about a fast as a machine gun, every shot was an instant kill, and I don’t know how many bullets his “six shooter” fired. Gotta love the movies 😃 [My mistake…four coffins.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeFpM2OEWPs) Clint Eastwood is a total badass. He always had the great lines while shootin’ at people. Of course, there’s the classic, “I know what you’re thinkin’. Did he fire six shots or only five…” I can never decide if I like his westerns more or Dirty Harry. It might be time for a Clint Eastwood festival at my house. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/148 "2009-05-24T01:11:37Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I wouldn’t either, and I’m no guide, expert, or great outdoorsman. I don’t care if it’s the Arctic or not (and yes polar bears will hunt people), a bear (polar, grizzly or black) can and will kill a person with ridiculous ease, and you can’t outrun one. If I ever did go to bear country, it would be with a guide, and at least one of us would be appropriately armed. Let someone else be Number Nine on the hit parade. I used to chat with a guy (I forget his name) on some photo net occasionally, Big time bear photographer, knew all about bears, considered himself an expert, claimed he could tell their intentions. He took some absolutely beautiful photos. A bear eventually killed him. > > No bear is a big cuddly putty tat. Even a relatively small one can literally tear a human apart. Seriously? Have you seen a black bear? [Only 52 documented deaths by black bear in over 100 years.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade) I’m pretty sure you’re more likely to be struck by lightening. Black bears are more likely to spook and run than attack. The common recommendation is to make lots of noise when you see black bears. You can also arm yourself with bear (pepper) spray that (I’m told) is very effective in repelling them, but doesn’t harm them. Are you talking about “Grizzly Man” Timothy Treadwell? I can’t say it was a huge surprise he was killed by bears, given reports of his particular brand of interaction with them. It would be crass to say that he was asking for it, but he according to many reports, he didn’t take the usual, common sense safety precautions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/149 "2009-05-24T01:12:07Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Back in the day you _always_ tried to keep the biter alive and captured, so the authorities could observe it for signs of rabies. That’s for a domestic animal, one which is easily captured and observed. Otherwise the animal is killed for testing. > **[UpToDate](https://www.uptodate.com/contents/rabies-beyond-the-basics)** \*In other animals, the timing and amount of virus shed in the saliva has not adequately been studied. In this case, the recommendation is usually to euthanize the animal and test it for rabies. \* [http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/types.html](http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/types.html) _After exposure to wildlife in which rabies is suspected, prophylaxis is warranted in most circumstances. Because the period of rabies virus shedding in wild animal hybrids is unknown, these animals should be euthanized and tested rather than confined and observed when they bite humans._ Note that domestic type rodents are almost never rabid, but woodchucks do carry the disease. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/150 "2009-05-24T01:13:36Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Just a question, but are you sure you can get your gun out, pointed, and fire before the already ready bad guy can squeeze off a round or two? Because I might be the third party half a block down the street behind him. > Just asking. Speaking as a CHL carrier in an extended family with 4 or 5 more members off the top of my head that also carry, I’m reasonably sure that it’s tougher to surprise your average concealed handgun licensee. One of the things that’s stressed in our classes (in addition to the law, of course) is ‘situational awareness.’ Now, that sounds like something you’d expect to hear from an uber-ninja mall cop, but regardless of semantics it’s well understood. Most people walk around in ‘condition green,’ where they aren’t noticing their surroundings in any way other than not to run into stuff/people. When you’re bearing the responsibility of wearing a concealed handgun, you don’t want to be in condition green.\* Rather, for everyday walking around, one is advised to be in “condition yellow,” which significantly ups your awareness. (In “condition red,” it’s assumed that an attack is imminent.) Put another way, I don’t just “see” people; I “notice” people. I look at their line of approach to me, gauge their distance, sight-lines, and, yes, backstops in case anything happens. I have a comfort zone of about 30 feet that, if it can be helped, no one is going to enter without a ‘back off’ warning. Now obviously that doesn’t apply in Wal-Mart or the 7-11, but in situations like that I try not to have my back to people. There’s a disturbing video of an assailant walking up behind an old codger at McDonald’s or somewhere and, without the guy ever suspecting it, waylays him to the ground. It’s my hope that the crazy with a gun/knife/bat, whatever, wouldn’t have made it into my comfort zone to the point of being able to surprise me. It’s not perfect, and yes…I could still get surprised. But I think my ultimate point is that most of us see carrying less as a “I dare you to fuck with me!” thing and more of a “I have an immense responsibility.” We know, beyond a doubt, that we will have to account for every. single. round. \*Tangent: in my class, the instructor explained that most attacks occur within the distance of about 20 feet. When you’re standing 20 feet away from someone, you think “heh, that’s plenty of distance.” But it’s not. To illustrate, he took a rubber knife, TOLD me he was going to attack me from that distance, TOLD me he’d do it in 3…2…1…and he STILL overtook me before I could react enough to even get my feet set, let alone draw down with my practice rig. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/151 "2009-05-24T01:20:23Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Put another way, I don’t just “see” people; I “notice” people. I look at their line of approach to me, gauge their distance, sight-lines, and, yes, backstops in case anything happens. I have a comfort zone of about 30 feet that, if it can be helped, no one is going to enter without a ‘back off’ warning. Just what sort of post-apocalyptic combat zone do you live in? :eek: See, now, this is what worries me about people carrying concealed weapons. You, it would seem, have a wildly exaggerated notion of the dangers of everyday life. To me, that makes you a clear and present danger. I would feel much, much safer if you weren’t anywhere in my vicinity. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/152 "2009-05-24T01:32:25Z")
And you’d probably think that in all the years I’ve carried, I’d pull a gun all willy-nilly, when in fact it’s never even crossed my mind. Fact is, long before I carried, I was approached twice by men with knives. Once on foot, once in my vehicle. The first time, I had no option but run, and it was the scariest thing I’ve ever experienced. The second time, I was able to just drive away, but it still shook me up. I resolved that once I could legally carry a gun, I would. Think about police officers; does carrying a weapon off-duty count as “a wildly exaggerated notion of the dangers of everyday life”? Parts of their jobs are live and death, but why do cops eating lunch at Denny’s keep their guns on? Why bother with an off-duty weapon when you’re not putting yourself into those life and death situations? I think your last sentence sums it up: you would _feel_ much safer. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/153 "2009-05-24T02:03:02Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > [My mistake…four coffins.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeFpM2OEWPs) > > Clint Eastwood is a total badass. He always had the great lines while shootin’ at people. Of course, there’s the classic, “I know what you’re thinkin’. Did he fire six shots or only five…” I can never decide if I like his westerns more or Dirty Harry. It might be time for a Clint Eastwood festival at my house. What a pussy! It took him five shots to kill four guys in that western! Anyway, I’ll bring the Guinness. Ha ha, Guinness (warm) at an Eastwood festival. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/154 "2009-05-24T02:04:19Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > And you’d probably think that in all the years I’ve carried, I’d pull a gun all willy-nilly, when in fact it’s never even crossed my mind. Your own post seems to contradict that. You’re thinking about it constantly, whenever someone gets “too close” to you. You’re always in “condition yellow.” Frankly, that’s scary. > [@](#): > > Fact is, long before I carried, I was approached twice by men with knives. I’ve got to ask again, what sort of combat zone do you live in? Nothing like that has ever happened to me, or to anyone I know, and I’ve wandered the streets of cities all over the world, often at weird hours. Granted, I wouldn’t head into Anacostia at 3:00 a.m., but that wouldn’t change if I were armed - I still wouldn’t do it. > [@](#): > > Think about police officers; does carrying a weapon off-duty count as “a wildly exaggerated notion of the dangers of everyday life”? To tell the truth, I think it does. A policeman’s job exposes him to the worst elements of society, so it’s natural that he comes to think of those elements as somehow “normal.” He doesn’t get dispatched to a bank where there’s no robbery in progress. He isn’t called to break up “domestic harmony.” People who work in hospitals routinely overestimate the rates of disease in their communities. Policemen routinely overestimate crime rates. To top it off, when I lived near D.C., the news items about off-duty policemen using their weapons almost always seemed to involve \*improper \*uses of the weapon, as in, “Cop gets into a fender-bender with someone, and ends up shooting the guy,” or “Cop gets into argument with furniture delivery guys, kills one, wounds a second.” Once in a while, the off-duty cop did, in fact, manage to foil some crime in progress, but the “bad cop” stories seemed to outnumber the “glad he was there” stories. Of course, when we’re talking about National Parks, it becomes fairly absurd to worry about “bad guys.” The crime rates in National Parks are almost unbelievably low. And when you get more than about a mile from the nearest parking lot, things get very laid back, indeed. In my experience, people in remote campsites leave valuables lying around in plain site while they’re out day-hiking. It really is that safe. Defending against wild animals? You’re in much greater danger from lightning, or from Lyme Disease (let’s see you try to pick off that deer tick with your 9mm! 😉 ). Attacks by wild animals are so rare, they fall into the “freak occurrence” category, and even among that handful of cases, the victim often wouldn’t have had a chance to get off an effective shot, anyway. If you’re foolish enough to wade into a huckleberry patch in the northern Rockies in the Autumn, your handgun isn’t going to do you much good. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/155 "2009-05-24T02:21:33Z")
Is any of that required, or even common, for a ccl where such is legal? I know it’s not required. In fact, most don’t want such regulations among those I know. They don’t even want a license to be required to carry. Me? I’d much prefer to be in “condition green”. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/156 "2009-05-24T02:44:02Z")
**Mangeorge,** I’m not sure quite what you’re asking. Is situational awareness required? The answer to that is, I suppose, no. They require that you take a class that includes where you can and can’t carry, what specific parts of the law you’re using as “justification,” peaceful conflict resolution, etc. Then you take a written test and a shooting test. They run your fingerprints through the state and federal databases, do a criminal background check, things like that. The situational awareness thing is just an element of NOT wanting to get surprised. If I’m not answering the right question, please let me know. **Early Out** , I live in Jefferson, TX - wiki page [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson,_Texas). Not exactly the crime capital of the world, but both of those knife incidents happened downtown. I don’t think it was 3am…probably closer to midnight. Our little burg, 99.99% of the time, is nice and safe, and technically I live in the woods outside of town, anyway. I _have_ had to shoot a rabid dog on my property before, but bears are way out of the ordinary. Bobcats come and go, but have never been a problem. My neighbor has a huge dog that he let roam around for a while, and which used to, um, visit here, which made me uneasy–that dog could stand flatfooted and look into my truck window. But I never had to draw down and get into a commando stance and shoot it between the running lights or anything. 😉 Now, the neighbors that _used_ to live in the house ran a meth lab there, which wasn’t a great situation. Meth has just taken over down here. Anyway… I’m well aware that it’s incredibly rare to be the victim of any kind of crime, but I just believe in being prepared. To me, it’s no different than the smoke alarm in my hallway or the fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I’ve never been in a car wreck or fender bender, but I carry full-coverage insurance anyway. That, to me, extends to my personal safety. It’s my sincere hope that I lug around this 5 pound piece of metal on my hip for the rest of my life without ever having the opportunity to use it. The fact that I try not to allow myself to be blindsided shouldn’t make you feel less safe. I can’t cite it, but I’m a pretty decent, functioning member of society. I have a graduate degree; I teach college. I’m married. I have close friends, and when I meet new people I don’t think they think I’m rude or dangerous. I think the bottom line is that I was raised in a place where everybody and their dog has a gun, and a fairly large percentage of people carry one–usually in their vehicle. In fact, it’s legal here to have a loaded handgun, rifle, or shotgun in your car, no license of any kind required. For me, that doesn’t make me feel any less safe. I don’t worry about the blood in the streets because of armed folks with road rage…in my experience it just doesn’t happen much. But my wife works in a local bank that’s been robbed recently, Texas DPS Trooper Scott Burns was murdered here recently, the railroad killer from '97 or so who killed a lady in Hughes Springs, TX–rode a train 100 yards from my back door (I’m on the line that goes to Hughes Springs.) The thing with the knives was probably the biggest catalyst to my decision to arm myself, but while crime is uncommon in the abstract, it does hit close to home sometimes. I hate to come off as irrational, but that may be unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/157 "2009-05-24T02:57:16Z")
I suppose I’m asking if tactical self defense training is required. Practical “how not to shoot bystanders” training. And "how to tell a real threat from a “scary guy”. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/158 "2009-05-24T03:08:16Z")
Inasmuch as there’s no shooting course where you have to quickly identify targets and make a decision to engage or not, no. You’re merely required to prove that you can shoot a certain percentage of rounds onto a human-sized paper target. Same target our DPS troopers use in their qualifications. As far as the “how not to shoot bystanders” and “how to tell a real threat,” absolutely. That goes hand in hand with the classroom training and the study of the law. What we all have to understand is that to use deadly force (or the threat of it,) you essentially have to meet 2 requirements: 1) you must be justified, under the law, to use force, and 2) you must believe that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. A “scary guy” close by is not a reason to use force, including deadly force. The idea I was trying to convey in my original post was more along the lines of this: I’m a freeway flier–my job requires me to commute, and I’m on the road at night. Often, I stop at self-service gas stations for a fill-up. In a situation like that, if someone approaches me in a direct line and I cannot see their hands, my reaction would be to face them and make eye contact. If the get near my “comfort zone,” I’d say “woah” or “hold on” as clearly as I could. It could be someone down on their luck who simply wanted a few bucks for a sandwich–in which case I’d happily give them any cash I could spare. On the other hand, it could be something else, and I do NOT want to be blindsided. At no point would I have brandished (or even reached for) my gun. Not until the person was close enough to do me harm and had **displayed** his _ability_ and _intent_ to do so. Anything else is reckless, illegal, and lacks sanity. The only other situation where deadly force is justified when one’s own body isn’t threatened is the defense of a third party. Were I to be walking down the street and look down an ally to see someone raping a woman, for instance, the law justifies me to use deadly force to stop the act upon the woman. Another important point is that a CHL holder cannot re-engage; that is, in my gas station example, if a guy came at me with a baseball bat but turned and ran away when he saw my gun, I could **not** and would not take any further action. I might can dig up the Texas CHL manual online if you’re interested. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/159 "2009-05-24T03:38:23Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Here’s a [list of shootings](http://countusout.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/us-mass-shootings-since-march-102009-less-than-1-month/) they seem to be referring to: Interesting how it appears that all of these ended when the criminal was stopped using “gun violence”. > [@wevets](#): > > The second amendment does not give you a right to carry a firearm **wherever you want** - it gives you the right to carry a firearm in your home and some other places. The second amendment prohibits the government from infringing the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It _does not_ give anyone the right to carry a firearm in their home or some other places or **wherever they want** because the government we create is incapable of giving rights. > [@Washoe](#): > > _Pffffft_—in the entire 99 year history of Glacier NP, there have been only eight confirmed grizzly bear attacks on humans. Would you agree that some portion of the people who go missing are _unconfirmed_ grizzly attacks? > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > I think my ultimate point is that most of us see carrying less as a “I dare you to fuck with me!” thing and more of a “I have an immense responsibility.” We know, beyond a doubt, that we will have to account for every. single. round. Bears repeating. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301/160 "2009-05-24T03:49:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Didn’t something similar happen to Danny Bonaduce? No, I think instead he was hosting the show. He did some wild things in the past, so when he gets a “WTF are you thinking look”, you just know it’s gonna be a doozy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concealed-guns-in-national-parks-loaded-weapons-in-wildlife-refuges-whaaa/497301.md?page=9)