# Concerned about getting a black or foreign doctor? Make sure to use www.whitedoctor.org! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 14, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936 "2010-02-14T06:05:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/61 "2010-02-15T16:47:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And saying that black people who want black doctors are not racists while white people who want white doctors are racists is equally as obtuse. > > Note that by “racist” I mean “a person who holds the belief that other races are inferior to his/her own.” I can kind of accept the premise that a black person who’s selecting based on race is no different than a white person who’s selecting based on race. But I don’t think that selection has to be based on superiority/inferiority of the doctor, as the term “racist” implies. I might go to a black doctor because I believe I will form a different kind of relationship with that doctor than I would with a white doctor. Or I might go to a black doctor because I want to financially support black doctors, who are a minority in the profession and probably face discrimination by the mainstream (white) community. A white person who chooses a black doctor might do so because he, like **silenus** , is intentionally looking for an “outsider’s” point-of-view. A black person might choose to go to a white doctor because he believes he will make a more memorable impression on him or her, being a member of a minority group, and thus will receive more attentive care. To me, it’s like selecting mates. Some people are attracted to everyone equally. Some people like people from their own culture, because they like being in a safe comfort zone. Some people choose to stick with their own because they want to perpetuate their culture and group. Some people have fetishes or stereotypes about the “other” and actively seek them out (like Jews being superior doctors), or they are attracted to certain elements of the “other” that are lacking in their own culture. And then some are straight up racists and have formed ugly beliefs about groups other than their own. Labeling all kinds of race-based selection as racist grossly oversimplifies human preferences. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/62 "2010-02-15T16:54:52Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Labeling all kinds of race-based selection as racist grossly oversimplifies human preferences. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/63 "2010-02-15T17:03:43Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Note that by “frog” I mean “giraffe.” OK, so when you say a person is a racist, what do you mean exactly? Also, well said monstro. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/64 "2010-02-15T17:10:33Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > As for the race or ethnicity of a physician - as long as I can understand what they say and I feel like they understand what I say, I’m fine. But when I have to ask the same question three times trying to figure out what the doc is telling me, that’s not good. I don’t think you’re a racist if you can’t communicate with a doctor because of a language or accent issue. Pretty much this. I don’t care what race or gender they are as long as I can understand them. I’ve had doctors in the past with heavy accents. I have trouble figuring out what exactly is wrong with me, and I’ve given them wrong information to work off of because of the communications difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/65 "2010-02-15T19:28:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK, so when you say a person is a racist, what do you mean exactly? > > Also, well said monstro. My point is that your strategy here is to derail the discussion into a tangle of semantics. Ever notice, when you put in a DVD, how there’s an FBI warning that any reproduction of this material is subject to prosecution, including “infringement without monetary gain”? Ever wonder why that is? The reason is because that way, in order to prosecute, the FBI is only required to prove infringement; it doesn’t have the burden of analyzing your books with a forensic accountant to prove or disprove monetary gain. In other words, if it weren’t for that caveat, all you’d have to do to get away with infringing a copyright is be moderately skilled at cooking your books, hiding your profit. This would put the burden of enforcement on the accounting, rather than on the act of infringement. You’re doing much the same thing here: diverting the discussion to a semantic dance around the gray areas of the word “racist,” a spinning plate which any halfway skilled debater can keep up in the air indefinitely. The ball is then entirely in your court, entirely under your control: as long as you simply refuse to agree on a definition of the term “racist,” you can keep the debate going, without any progress, to infinity and beyond, as it were. When, cutting through the bullshit, we all know that a minority patient might very well have legitimate cause to expect lesser, or at least less committed, care from a doctor whose race is in line with the racial majority–thereby providing him with less incentive to cater to the specialized needs of a minority patient–than a majority-race patient with a minority doctor–as that doctor lives in, and was trained in, the same majority-weighted context as his majority colleagues. I somehow put that as confusingly as it’s possible to do, but my point is: a minority patient is far more likely to have a valid, practical reason to prefer a like-minority doctor than a majority patient is to prefer a like-majority doctor. Leaving racism, when the math is done, as a more probably motivation in the latter case than in the former. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/66 "2010-02-15T20:22:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > When, cutting through the bullshit, we all know that a minority patient might very well have legitimate cause to expect lesser, or at least less committed, care from a doctor whose race is in line with the racial majority–thereby providing him with less incentive to cater to the specialized needs of a minority patient–than a majority-race patient with a minority doctor–as that doctor lives in, and was trained in, the same majority-weighted context as his majority colleagues. I somehow put that as confusingly as it’s possible to do, but my point is: a minority patient is far more likely to have a valid, practical reason to prefer a like-minority doctor than a majority patient is to prefer a like-majority doctor. Leaving racism, when the math is done, as a more probably motivation in the latter case than in the former. I’m not sure I buy the premise. In any two racial or ethnic groups that have a past history of conflict or oppression, why is it axiomatic that members of the minority would be expected to sympathize or care for members of the majority? Would there not be a lingering concern that they may harbour resentment in the physician-patient relationship, just as members of the majority may harbour feelings of distain? Again, this leaves aside any concern that the patient is actually racist themselves - merely that they have a legitimate concern about being treated in a relationship that is not as good as it would otherwise be, based on concerns about the _presumed_ racial feelings of the doc. Or, it isn’t inconceivable that a patient may not want a doc thinking about those 200 years of slavery, oppression and lack of rights his or her ancestors suffered at the hands of the patient’s ancestors, while inserting steel instruments into the patient’s rear end. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/67 "2010-02-15T20:30:09Z")
I think that in the psychology of colonization–this is obviously opinion, YMMV–the colonized minority is more likely to be, in general, deferential to the majority. Most people learn to go along to get along. With some rebellious individuals standing out all the more as exceptions. In any case, the educational context favors the majority, so the knowledge base of practitioners is likely to display the same imbalance, insofar as there is one. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/68 "2010-02-15T20:42:59Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I think that in the psychology of colonization–this is obviously opinion, YMMV–the colonized minority is more likely to be, in general, deferential to the majority. Most people learn to go along to get along. With some rebellious individuals standing out all the more as exceptions. In any case, the educational context favors the majority, so the knowledge base of practitioners is likely to display the same imbalance, insofar as there is one. In reality, I’d expect the vast majority of physicians of any race or ethnicity to put being a physician first whatever the ethnicity of the patient. The issue as I see it is one of the patient’s perceptions and concerns, and whether or not catering to them is legitimate. If there is a history of ethnic or racial conflict or oppression, then certainly such concerns have legitimacy, either way. OTOH, catering to them runs contrary to other values–namely, the values inherent in creating the sort of society in the future where such concerns do not have legitimacy because the conflict no longer has any meaning. By “catering to” I merely mean approval or disapproval; I think folks should have the right to choose whomever they want as a doc. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/69 "2010-02-15T20:50:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In reality, I’d expect the vast majority of physicians of any race or ethnicity to put being a physician first whatever the ethnicity of the patient. The issue as I see it is one of the patient’s perceptions and concerns, and whether or not catering to them is legitimate. > > If there is a history of ethnic or racial conflict or oppression, then certainly such concerns have legitimacy, either way. OTOH, catering to them runs contrary to other values–namely, the values inherent in creating the sort of society in the future where such concerns do not have legitimacy because the conflict no longer has any meaning. > > By “catering to” I merely mean approval or disapproval; I think folks should have the right to choose whomever they want as a doc. I agree that this is the balance that must be struck, but I’d also suggest that this is a broader question than the one addressed in this thread. Limited to that context, I think it goes almost without saying that a minority-patient’s motivations for preferring a like-minority doctor are more practical and rooted in a very real cultural context than a majority-patient’s motivations are likely to be. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/70 "2010-02-16T01:04:35Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > My point is that your strategy here is to derail the discussion into a tangle of semantics. > > Ever notice, when you put in a DVD, how there’s an FBI warning that any reproduction of this material is subject to prosecution, including “infringement without monetary gain”? Ever wonder why that is? The reason is because that way, in order to prosecute, the FBI is only required to prove infringement; it doesn’t have the burden of analyzing your books with a forensic accountant to prove or disprove monetary gain. In other words, if it weren’t for that caveat, all you’d have to do to get away with infringing a copyright is be moderately skilled at cooking your books, hiding your profit. This would put the burden of enforcement on the accounting, rather than on the act of infringement. > > You’re doing much the same thing here: diverting the discussion to a semantic dance around the gray areas of the word “racist,” a spinning plate which any halfway skilled debater can keep up in the air indefinitely. The ball is then entirely in your court, entirely under your control: as long as you simply refuse to agree on a definition of the term “racist,” you can keep the debate going, without any progress, to infinity and beyond, as it were. > > When, cutting through the bullshit, we all know that a minority patient might very well have legitimate cause to expect lesser, or at least less committed, care from a doctor whose race is in line with the racial majority–thereby providing him with less incentive to cater to the specialized needs of a minority patient–than a majority-race patient with a minority doctor–as that doctor lives in, and was trained in, the same majority-weighted context as his majority colleagues. I somehow put that as confusingly as it’s possible to do, but my point is: a minority patient is far more likely to have a valid, practical reason to prefer a like-minority doctor than a majority patient is to prefer a like-majority doctor. Leaving racism, when the math is done, as a more probably motivation in the latter case than in the former. Wow. I provided my definition of racist because I thought we may be speaking at cross-purposes. And somehow doing that means I’m trying to derail the thread into semantics and trying to NOT define the term. Yeesh almighty. In any event, I think you are making this whole thing too complicated. Some people just prefer doctors that are x (and some of those folks posted in this thread), so [www.xdoctors.org](http://www.xdoctors.org) doesn’t bother me for any value of x. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/71 "2010-02-16T04:20:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Wow. I provided my definition of racist because I thought we may be speaking at cross-purposes. And somehow doing that means I’m trying to derail the thread into semantics and trying to NOT define the term. Yeesh almighty. > > In any event, I think you are making this whole thing too complicated. Some people just prefer doctors that are x (and some of those folks posted in this thread), so [www.xdoctors.org](http://www.xdoctors.org) doesn’t bother me for any value of x. You still refuse to acknowledge the context. Life is context. Things are connected to other things. No man is an island; pick your formulation. If you do not take context into account, you go through life like a blindered horse or a Libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/72 "2010-02-16T04:23:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But I don’t think that feeling is something that should be catered to. That feeling is as much responsible for the persistence of the idea that there is racism as is actual racism itself. That’s a statement that could only be made by someone who doesn’t experience actual racism on any sort of regular basis. As someone who _does_ I can tell you quite concretely that yes, that feeling should be catered to in certain aspects of life. When it’s someone who will be seeing me unclothed, who will be learning intimate details of my life and whom I have to trust to provide me with information that could be, ultimately, the difference between life and death, then my perception of the possibility of being mistreated because I’m female or because I’m black or because I’m Jewish or even because of my health history or the shape of my body (given that health care providers overwhelmingly admit to bias against and outright disgust over fat patients) then it makes no sense to _not_ take the potential for bias against me into consideration. Now, am I likely to do that by picking any black doctor out of a hat, or rather, from a website? No. But it might be where I _start_ in a search for information. It’s not racism, it’s _self-preservation_. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/73 "2010-02-16T04:41:31Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Now, am I likely to do that by picking any black doctor out of a hat, or rather, from a website? No. But it might be where I _start_ in a search for information. > > It’s not racism, it’s _self-preservation_. Which, interestingly, is the exact same premise that [white power separatists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism)operate from. > [@](#): > > White nationalists argue that every nationality feels a natural affection for its own kind.[7] Many white nationalists consider themselves patriotic preservers of European history and culture. They say they stand for racial self-preservation and claim that culture itself is a product of race.[4] White nationalists argue that a natural hierarchy should triumph over the “false promise of egalitarianism”[8] and that the downfall of white dominance spells doom for representative government, the rule of law and freedom of speech.[9] ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/74 "2010-02-16T04:51:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Which, interestingly, is the exact same premise that [white power separatists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism)operate from. Which is why we have a brain. Do you need someone to explain the difference? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/75 "2010-02-16T04:59:07Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Which is why we have a brain. Do you need someone to explain the difference? In the end [exceptionalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism) is a sharp bladed knife that you generally wind up cutting your own fingers with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/76 "2010-02-16T05:02:08Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Which, interestingly, is the exact same premise that [white power separatists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism)operate from. No it isn’t. “Racial self-preservation” has nothing to do with actual, physical and emotional self-presevation. “Racial self-preservation” is just meaningless, horshit crap with no foundation in any real, personal threat, White supremacist retards use that phrase to refer to a fear that white people will eventually disappear from the earth due to “mixing of he races,” (why anyone should give a shit, I have no idea) not because of any actual, physical existential threat to living white people either as a group or as individuals. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/77 "2010-02-16T05:27:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In the end [exceptionalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism) is a sharp bladed knife that you generally wind up cutting your own fingers with. **astro** , if you really want to try to convince me that the context of those words–even if exactly the same statement were expressed, word for word, by a member of a racial minority, and by a white supremacist-- that the respective contexts makes absolutely no difference–does the word “nigger” have exactly the same meaning from every mouth that speaks it?–if you really want to try to convince me of this, can you at least try to make it rhyme or something? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/78 "2010-02-16T11:00:13Z")
So, if I read a study somewhere that says doctors from Arbitrary Racial Minority Group 47 provide statistically significantly worse care than the norm, when it comes time to pick a doctor from the phone book is it okay for me to just skip over every doctor with a name from that minority group? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/79 "2010-02-16T14:11:50Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > … (given that health care providers overwhelmingly admit to bias against and outright disgust over fat patients)… Looking for a cite for this. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936/80 "2010-02-16T15:04:33Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > So, if I read a study somewhere that says doctors from Arbitrary Racial Minority Group 47 provide statistically significantly worse care than the norm, when it comes time to pick a doctor from the phone book is it okay for me to just skip over every doctor with a name from that minority group? In the fantasy-land where such a study would ever be published\*, sure. - In a publication with any legitimacy, i.e., not Stormfront or WorldNutDaily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-about-getting-a-black-or-foreign-doctor-make-sure-to-use-www-whitedoctor-org/528936.md?page=5)