# "Concerned Citizens of the United States" Looking Out for Our Interests! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679 "2010-07-14T17:34:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/241 "2010-07-27T21:41:53Z")
> [@xanthfreek](#): > > Sorry, I’m a newbie and still trying to get this posting thing figured out. Welcome to the Dope Welcome to the Dope Welcome …you get the idea. Hope you enjoy it here, **xanthfreek**. ---
**Author:** ![xanthfreek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9d8465/32.png) [@xanthfreek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthfreek)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/242 "2010-07-27T21:56:37Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > Especially coming from a nation that was founded on unhindered immigration. > > What country are you talking about? The US was founded on liberty and freedom. For citizens. There were no citizens until a bunch of people from the other side of the Atlantic proclaimed themselves so. I vote humanity over citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/243 "2010-07-27T22:03:10Z")
> [@xanthfreek](#): > > There were no citizens until a bunch of people from the other side of the Atlantic proclaimed themselves so. I vote humanity over citizenship. I am excited to hear your proposal for how you’re going to provide housing, jobs, medical care, education, and food for every person who’d want to come to the U.S. if we completely opened our borders. ETA: I’m reining myself in because you’re new, but you will want to take note of the location of this thread: the Pit. That means that normally, I’d probably be spewing a slightly ridiculous amount of invective your way. (The Pit is the one forum where personal attacks on fellow posters are allowed. If you’re looking for polite and/or reasoned debate, try General Questions (GQ) for factual issues and General Debate (GD) for less concrete issues.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/244 "2010-07-27T22:38:11Z")
Go now, and repent, make sacrifice to the Jackal Headed God, Anewbies… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/245 "2010-07-27T23:04:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Go now, and repent, make sacrifice to the Jackal Headed God, Anewbies… If I might suggest a sacrifice… make it elucidator. (That was terrible, you bad man.) ---
**Author:** ![xanthfreek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9d8465/32.png) [@xanthfreek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthfreek)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/246 "2010-07-28T04:10:51Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I see nothing wrong with concerned citizens reporting illegals to the relevant authorities, no more than I would have a problem with a person who reported that their neighbour was a law-breaker. > > It is the duty of every good citizen to report illegals and other lawbreakers, and not turn a blind eye to their activities. Seems Hitler and his Nazis, as well as George W. Bush (via his Patritot [Patriot? Really?] Act), said the same thing. I guess you’re in good company, no? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/247 "2010-07-28T04:30:40Z")
By “other lawbreakers,” you of course do mean those two cretins who knowingly and willfully broke the laws to obtain their info, right? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/248 "2010-07-28T08:36:55Z")
Laws were made by men, lots of whom I’m sure I’d have disagreed with passionately, so pardon me if I prefer to follow my own laws and break the ones I don’t believe will cause harm to others, like smoking pot, f’rinstance. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/249 "2010-07-28T14:25:30Z")
> [@xanthfreek](#): > > Seems Hitler and his Nazis, as well as George W. Bush (via his Patritot [Patriot? Really?] Act), said the same thing. I guess you’re in good company, no? Okay, that’s it. You’ve officially moved past my window of polite tolerance and benefit of the doubt. You’ve posted variations on the same observation FOUR TIMES now. Four. Times. This last one way, \*way \*after there’s any possibility that you could have NOT seen that the other three posts were live. So I have to ask: are you fucking drunk or just retarded? Given that you apparently love the series by Piers Anthony that would seem to be your eponym, I’m going with the latter. ETA: And most people on this board are smart enough to figure out sarcastiquotes in “‘Patriot’ Act,” so you could have just stopped after the first one. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/250 "2010-07-28T20:34:36Z")
The governor is taking a lot of criticism for firing the criminals, according to the [Salt Lake Tribune](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50003880-76/list-governor-state-wrote.html.csp): > [@](#): > > The fiery e-mails condemned [Gov.] Herbert as a coward, questioned his sanity, compared him to excrement and demanded that he pardon the two state workers and honor them with a medal. ETA: I use the word “criminals” assuming the list was obtained illegally. I recognize that that may be an erroneous assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/251 "2010-07-28T20:50:56Z")
Have we established whether all the people on the list were actually here illegally, yet? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/252 "2010-07-29T04:29:05Z")
I think there’s a high confidence that at least one was not, from the news reports. ---
**Author:** ![xanthfreek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9d8465/32.png) [@xanthfreek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthfreek)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/253 "2010-07-31T19:10:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@xanthfreek](#): > > > > There were no citizens until a bunch of people from the other side of the Atlantic proclaimed themselves so. I vote humanity over citizenship. > > I am excited to hear your proposal for how you’re going to provide housing, jobs, medical care, education, and food for every person who’d want to come to the U.S. if we completely opened our borders. > > ETA: I’m reining myself in because you’re new, but you will want to take note of the location of this thread: the Pit. That means that normally, I’d probably be spewing a slightly ridiculous amount of invective your way. (The Pit is the one forum where personal attacks on fellow posters are allowed. If you’re looking for polite and/or reasoned debate, try General Questions (GQ) for factual issues and General Debate (GD) for less concrete issues.) No proposals. With your “For citizens” thing, you staple a condition on a historic situation that had nothing to do with citizenry. There was no exclusionary rule for new people coming over. Most of the citizenry of the United States is an amalgamation of peoples from all over the world – today – after the establishment of the institution of citizenry. But after a generation or so, the “closed door” policy seems to kick in that says, “Well, I made it over here, but as I step through the door from there to here, I try to close the door behind me.” There have been all sorts of attempts to govern, filter and restrict immigration and they have all failed. Where do we put the brakes on? What are the criteria?..the parameters? People who were once native to this land are now outcasts in their own home. Where do you divide who from whom? When it comes to human rights, who makes the decisions? Where is there a delineated, bedrock definition of right and wrong in this entire issue? I’m just having trouble understanding your premise or its validity. I hope this isn’t getting too academic and meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![xanthfreek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9d8465/32.png) [@xanthfreek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthfreek)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/254 "2010-07-31T22:55:43Z")
But perhaps you’re right – I think I’m more interested in the “reasoned debate” thing. Not necessarily polite, but based on reasoning more than a little therapeutic hostility. But if I happen to get really pissed off, I know where to come. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/255 "2010-08-02T18:26:33Z")
> [@xanthfreek](#): > > No proposals. With your “For citizens” thing, you staple a condition on a historic situation that had nothing to do with citizenry. There was no exclusionary rule for new people coming over. Most of the citizenry of the United States is an amalgamation of peoples from all over the world – today – after the establishment of the institution of citizenry. But after a generation or so, the “closed door” policy seems to kick in that says, “Well, I made it over here, but as I step through the door from there to here, I try to close the door behind me.” There have been all sorts of attempts to govern, filter and restrict immigration and they have all failed. Where do we put the brakes on? What are the criteria?..the parameters? People who were once native to this land are now outcasts in their own home. Where do you divide who from whom? When it comes to human rights, who makes the decisions? Where is there a delineated, bedrock definition of right and wrong in this entire issue? I’m just having trouble understanding your premise or its validity. Uh huh. So, you’re going to pay for all of these services with unicorn farts, then? It’s a very nice \*ideal \*to be able to allow anyone who wants to immigrate to the U.S. to do so. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing called “reality.” We literally \*could not \*support the entire population of the world in this one country, so there need to be some kind of reasonable limits on how many may immigrate every year. So the issue then becomes: (a) how many people can we \*reasonably \*allow into the country every year; (b) given that we can only allow a limited number of people in, should there be any consideration given to their skills sets/ability to support themselves; and (c) does the answer to “b” also impact the answer to “a”? > [@](#): > > I hope this isn’t getting too academic and meaningful. It’s entirely possible to have discussions that are both “academic and meaningful” in the Pit. There will just also be personal attacks, and not everyone will feel the need to support their points (either with evidence or with logic). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/256 "2010-08-02T18:40:12Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Nitpick: “We’ll _give some land to_.” > > You are impossible sometimes. Clearly she’s not _impossible_; she exists. I think you mean to say that she’s _improbable_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/257 "2010-08-02T18:46:39Z")
But if admit that I’m impossible, wouldn’t I cease to (poof!)… ---
**Author:** ![xanthfreek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9d8465/32.png) [@xanthfreek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthfreek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/258 "2010-08-02T19:18:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > [QUOTE= > > Uh huh. So, you’re going to pay for all of these services with unicorn farts, then? > > It’s a very nice \*ideal \*to be able to allow anyone who wants to immigrate to the U.S. to do so. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing called “reality.” We literally \*could not \*support the entire population of the world in this one country, so there need to be some kind of reasonable limits on how many may immigrate every year. So the issue then becomes: (a) how many people can we \*reasonably \*allow into the country every year; (b) given that we can only allow a limited number of people in, should there be any consideration given to their skills sets/ability to support themselves; and (c) does the answer to “b” also impact the answer to “a”? > > > [@](#): > > > > I hope this isn’t getting too academic and meaningful. > > It’s entirely possible to have discussions that are both “academic and meaningful” in the Pit. There will just also be personal attacks, and not everyone will feel the need to support their points (either with evidence or with logic). Actually, I agree with you to a great extent. My beef was your comment about citizenship. Delineating our population according to citizenship is one thing – disallowing immigration because someone is not already a citizen is another, and that seemed to be the flavor of your position. On the other hand, a good number of illegals come in without really causing too much of a problem; in fact, sometimes they have a positive impact. When they come here (I’m referring mostly to Mexican migrant workers, here) for really cheap wages to do work that most American citizens refuse to do, the contractors save money that they often pass on to consumers. The taxes that the contractor pays in for the labor is money the workers won’t get back, so it stays in the country. They will send money back home, increasing the economy of Mexico, which means that there’s that much that Mexico doesn’t depend on us. Sure, there are as many negative consequences as positive, but they sort of cancel each other out in the long run. Plus some economists submit that the cost of maintaining such a vigilant effort to keep illegals out will outstrip any advantage it may have. Some disadvantages: Collecting in big cities with no accountability on the census – this works against programs designed to provide benefits to specific locales and those areas will not receive the full measure their needs, sometimes resulting in rezoning that works to the deficit of that demographic sector. Plus when illegals work for too cheap in the city, it keeps wages down even as the cost of living goes up. I’m not trying to be arbitrarily difficult, but I believe too hard a stance either way works to the general deficit. I don’t have all the answers, and some of my position leans towards a philosophical bent, but I believe I’m applying a fairly pragmatic logic here. A dialectic doesn’t always mean the last man standing (a la Marx and Engels) – it can also mean to incorporate the most compatible elements of both sides of the coin. As far as skills, etc., too often, according to some sociologists, we drag post-grads from other countries here, educate them, then seduce them into staying – a technique known as “brain drain.” We keep their talent, shoring up our own academic defenses, but leaving their home country without those resources. Then those countries suffer for lack of that educational facility, causing them to rely on us even more (give a man a sandwich, feed him for a day; give him a job and feed him for life). So we want to keep the best and eschew the rest. Works downhill all the way around. So where do we go from there? I don’t have all the answers, but then a very wise person once told me, “There are no answers, only choices.” Hope we make the wise choices. Oh, and thanks for the steam – I feel properly inducted into the BBQ Pit, now. Oh – did you mean that? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/259 "2010-08-02T19:50:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think you mean to say that she’s _improbable_. I think he means to say I’m _being difficult_. 😃 > [@xanthfreek](#): > > My beef was your comment about citizenship. Delineating our population according to citizenship is one thing – disallowing immigration because someone is not already a citizen is another, and that seemed to be the flavor of your position. What the hell does that even mean? Immigration \*by definition \*can’t happen unless the person is \*not \*a citizen of your country already. When I came home from Japan, I didn’t fucking \*immigrate \*here. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, a good number of illegals come in without really causing too much of a problem; in fact, sometimes they have a positive impact. No shit, sherlock. Undocumented workers do a lot of hard, unpleasant, or even nasty–but necessary–jobs in the U.S. right now. I’d rather they be doing those same jobs _as citizens and/or guest workers_, with rights and protections. > [@](#): > > Oh – did you mean that? Did I mean what? That I think the Xanth series is crap not fit for anyone over the age of 15? Hell yes. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/260 "2010-08-02T21:02:05Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > > I think you mean to say that she’s _improbable_. > > I think he means to say I’m _being difficult_. > > 😃 [del]Actually, I mean that I’ve started watching _The Big Bang Theory_ this year, and I really wanted to use one of[/del] oh, the hell with it. _Bazinga!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679.md?page=14)