# "Concerned Citizens of the United States" Looking Out for Our Interests! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679 "2010-07-14T17:34:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![dmatsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@dmatsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dmatsch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/121 "2010-07-21T17:59:12Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Give me your tired, your poor, > Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, > Unless they’re Mexican “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” …“and wish to enter this country through specified legal channels and NOT decide to hop the border, take an under the table job, not pay taxes, and live off the system that coddles you for as long as you can.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/122 "2010-07-21T18:39:05Z")
> [@dmatsch](#): > > and wish to enter this country through specified legal channels and NOT decide to hop the border, take an under the table job, not pay taxes, and live off the system that coddles you for as long as you can. 1.) Please provide an accurate description of the entire process of legal immigration. Please also provide an estimate of how likely it would be to succeed as unskilled labor. 2.) Please provide statistics on the average amount of services that non-documented workers in the U.S. receive versus how much they pay in taxes, including sales tax. Please also provide statistics on the difference between average income, both in wages/salary and benefits, for an undocumented worker versus one who is in the country legally. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/123 "2010-07-21T18:40:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s good enough for me. Obviously the people supposedly involved deserve the presumption of innocence, blah blah blah, but that’s more than enough evidence to say the list was illegally obtained. I’m now glad that I immediately accepted the version of events in which the list-makers are criminals. For my next trick, I will gratuitously assume that someone running away from my house carrying my stereo is, in fact, a robber. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/124 "2010-07-21T18:48:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > For my next trick, I will gratuitously assume that someone running away from my house carrying my stereo is, in fact, a robber. You don’t \*know \*that. Maybe he’s discovered that the stereo is a \*bomb \*and he’s trying to \*save \*you. Aren’t \*you \*an ungrateful son of a bitch! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/125 "2010-07-21T18:54:04Z")
> [@dmatsch](#): > > “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” > > …“and wish to enter this country through specified legal channels and NOT decide to hop the border, take an under the table job, not pay taxes, and live off the system that coddles you for as long as you can.” There were no border controls when you got there, so what gives you the right to impose them at any time after? Do you really think the land beneath your feet is your God-given entitlement for having conquered it? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/126 "2010-07-21T19:02:27Z")
Really, we didn’t \*conquer \*it so much as \*resettle \*it after our filthy diseases quite handily wiped out about 95% of the then-extant population. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/127 "2010-07-21T19:27:49Z")
[One of the two jerks involved fired already, the other soon to be fired.](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700049611/Probe-Just-2-involved-in-list.html) From the same article, an interesting point about illegal immigrants and government benefits: > [@](#): > > Illegal immigrants themselves are not eligible for government benefits, but their children born here, who are U.S. citizens, are eligible. I posted a thread some time ago asking “How many generations before one is considered an American?” Obviously, by law, one is a citizen if one meets the criteria. The two jerks invovled in this escapade apparently aren’t aware of that simple fact as they evidently considered those with “Hispanic surnames” to be foreigners. Damn racists. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/128 "2010-07-21T19:35:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [One of the two jerks involved fired already, the other soon to be fired.](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700049611/Probe-Just-2-involved-in-list.html) > > From the same article, an interesting point about illegal immigrants and government benefits: > I posted a thread some time ago asking “How many generations before one is considered an American?” Obviously, by law, one is a citizen if one meets the criteria. The two jerks invovled in this escapade apparently aren’t aware of that simple fact as they evidently considered those with “Hispanic surnames” to be foreigners. Damn racists. On the contrary, the people who do this kind of thing are well aware of that fact. That’s probably why there were due dates on the list. Gotta deport 'em before they drop the anchor babies! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/129 "2010-07-21T19:48:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There were no border controls when you got there, so what gives you the right to impose them at any time after? Do you really think the land beneath your feet is your God-given entitlement for having conquered it? Actually, yes. For a cite, please see: all of human history. Right of conquest is precisely what conveys title. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/130 "2010-07-21T20:11:42Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Purple monkey dishwasher. Shaka, when the walls fell. “Shoehorn Butterhorse.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/131 "2010-07-21T20:14:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s good enough for me. Obviously the people supposedly involved deserve the presumption of innocence, blah blah blah, but that’s more than enough evidence to say the list was illegally obtained. Was this sarcasm? I mean, I’m pretty confident it had to be a state employee – someone with access to that information – who did the deed, but I don’t see evidence in that article that it was these two people. If I had to guess based on my time working for the state I’d suppose that a cursory glance at the access histories of these two individuals’ state database profiles would indicate that they’d accessed the files. I’m not defending these people by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m just checking: was that your deadpan face or no? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/132 "2010-07-21T20:23:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, yes. For a cite, please see: all of human history. > > Right of conquest is precisely what conveys title. I didn’t hear anyone saying that when Saddam was kicking the shit out of Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![dmatsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@dmatsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dmatsch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/133 "2010-07-21T20:55:34Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > 1.) Please provide an accurate description of the entire process of legal immigration. Please also provide an estimate of how likely it would be to succeed as unskilled labor. > > 2.) Please provide statistics on the average amount of services that non-documented workers in the U.S. receive versus how much they pay in taxes, including sales tax. Please also provide statistics on the difference between average income, both in wages/salary and benefits, for an undocumented worker versus one who is in the country legally. 1. No. There are people legally becoming citizens every day of the week, so there indeed exists some system to become a legal naturalized citizen. You know there is. I know there is. Finding this information for all to see is pandering to your attempt at argument. 2a. No. It doesn’t take a rocket genius to figure out that non documented (read: non-tax-paying) workers cost the system undue expenses. Every hear of an anchor baby? Who paid for the birth of that baby? When the workers get hurt on the job, and go to the hospital, who do you think pays for that? Do I need to go on? 2b. No. Wage statistics for undocumented workers? Oxy-moron. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/134 "2010-07-21T20:55:44Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > I’m not defending these people by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m just checking: was that your deadpan face or no? Seemed like a straight statement to me. **Bricker** ’s not _that_ dry when he chooses to be sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/135 "2010-07-21T20:56:10Z")
> [@ivan astikov](#): > > I didn’t hear anyone saying that when Saddam was kicking the shit out of Kuwait. Wasn’t there long enough to convey the new titles. He in fact was conquered after he was “kicking the shit out of Kuwait”. ---
**Author:** ![dmatsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@dmatsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dmatsch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/136 "2010-07-21T21:00:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There were no border controls when you got there, so what gives you the right to impose them at any time after? Do you really think the land beneath your feet is your God-given entitlement for having conquered it? What the hell does this mean? When I got there? I was born here. What gives me the right to impose border controls after “I got here”? Uh, maybe because the illegals are starting to cause a serious concern to the economy of this nation. Do I think the land beneath my feet is my God given entitlement? Fuck yes. I’m a veteran. You bet your ass it’s my EARNED entitlement. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/137 "2010-07-21T21:12:00Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Wasn’t there long enough to convey the new titles. He in fact was conquered after he was “kicking the shit out of Kuwait”. So let me get this right… the Chinese or the Russians, or anyone else with ideas of world domination or expansion, are fully entitled to chance their arm and it’s up to those being attacked to be able to fight back, otherwise they deserve everything they get? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/138 "2010-07-21T21:19:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, yes. For a cite, please see: all of human history. > > Right of conquest is precisely what conveys title. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I didn’t hear anyone saying that when Saddam was kicking the shit out of Kuwait. I was under the impression that the point of the founding of the United Nations was to stop recognizing right of conquest as legitimate. Going forward, at any rate. In the meantime, the evolution of our consciousness kinda-sorta compels us to acknowledge that the past legitimacy of the practice is suspect (by today’s standards), and that what we have come to think of as the perquisites of sovereignty should at least be subjected to some scrutiny before we use them as exclusionary cudgels against human beings who presumably have the same reasons for wanting to be here as did our own immigrant ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/139 "2010-07-21T21:27:48Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Wasn’t there long enough to convey the new titles. He in fact was conquered after he was “kicking the shit out of Kuwait”. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So let me get this right… the Chinese or the Russians, or anyone else with ideas of world domination or expansion, are fully entitled to chance their arm and it’s up to those being attacked to be able to fight back, otherwise they deserve everything they get? Could be a whoosh buried in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679/140 "2010-07-21T21:30:33Z")
> [@dmatsch](#): > > 1. No. There are people legally becoming citizens every day of the week, so there indeed exists some system to become a legal naturalized citizen. You know there is. I know there is. Finding this information for all to see is pandering to your attempt at argument. > 2a. No. It doesn’t take a rocket genius to figure out that non documented (read: non-tax-paying) workers cost the system undue expenses. Every hear of an anchor baby? Who paid for the birth of that baby? When the workers get hurt on the job, and go to the hospital, who do you think pays for that? Do I need to go on? > 2b. No. Wage statistics for undocumented workers? Oxy-moron. So, in other words, “No, I prefer to wallow in my willful, racist ignorance.” You disgust me. Why the hell are you even on this board, if you have interest in learning? > [@dmatsch](#): > > Do I think the land beneath my feet is my God given entitlement? Fuck yes. I’m a veteran. You bet your ass it’s my EARNED entitlement. Unless you fought in WWII (and even that’s debateable), you haven’t done shit to protect this country. I’m sure you’ve done some very good work to protect people in \*other \*countries, or to defend the \*economic \*interests of \*some strata \*of American society, but the vast majority of American citizens were not particularly aided by your actions (and were potentially \*harmed \*by the loss of the vast resources the military in this country has soaked up). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerned-citizens-of-the-united-states-looking-out-for-our-interests/546679.md?page=8)