# Concerning Greek, Aramaic, and crucifixions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 13, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478 "2000-07-13T20:22:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/1 "2000-07-13T20:22:56Z")
Well, actually, THE Crucifixion. The background: Most of us have heard that depictions of crucifixions with the nails being pounded into the hands are inaccurate, that that would not support a person’s weight, and that the nails would really have been thru the person’s wrist. Here are the questions: 1. The Romans had a well-documented affinity for crucifixions. Is that the way they normally did it? 2. I heard a “Bible expert” say one time that the Biblical translation of “hand,” (the only references–actually, implications–of which, as it relates to The Crucifixion, I could find were in John 20:25, Luke 24:39, and Luke 24:40) was bad, that the original word (presumably Aramaic, translated into Greek) meant more than just hand, that it included the wrist. Accurate or not? 3. If the feet were also nailed to the cross (also documented in Luke 24), that would seem to relieve pressure on the hands, thus making an attachment thru the palms plausible. Were the feet typically nailed? (This is not intended to become a thread on theism or Christianity, but on translations and specifics on executions.) ---
**Author:** ![Gammu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@Gammu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gammu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/2 "2000-07-13T20:37:12Z")
I’m not an expert, but this site is interesting, with pictures: > **[The Jewish Roman World of Jesus](https://pages.charlotte.edu/james-tabor/)** > > Dr. James Tabor It’s hard to do a websearch on this topic and find info on crucifixion in general. I rememeber looking into this a while back when I read that stigmatics always bleed from places where wounds are depicted in artwork in their churchs rather than where actual wounds would have been produced. I never did discover if this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/3 "2000-07-13T20:41:22Z")
I get the impression that crucifiction was normally done by simply tying a person up – see the movie “Spartacus”, in which no one is nailed up. The remains of a person who had been crucified were turned up several years ago. If memory serves, this person had been nailed, but not through the wrists. Some doctor wrote a book called “A Doctor at Calvary” many years ago, in which he argued for a different placing of the nails, the argument being that , as you say, nails through the wriasts would b insufficient. People have suggested nailing through the forearm, or through a special place in the wrist that would allow it to support the weight. You can find siome of this stuff in G.A. wells’ “The Historical Evidence for Jesus”. Bear in mind that Wells doesn’t even think Christ existed. My own take: I can’t see Roman soldiers carefully searching the wrists for the Space of Destat (or whatever it was caled). Nails were expensive, too, back then. I suspect they’d simply lash the victim down, maybe hammering in a nail or two if they had it in for the guy. Gruesome, but effective. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/4 "2000-07-13T20:48:33Z")
I thought the point of crucifixion was death by exposure, which would lead the crucifier to undertake **Cal’s** method: tie those bastards up there. If you drove nails though someone’s wrists, wouldn’t they rapidly bleed to death, substantially shortening the fun? ---
**Author:** ![Gammu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@Gammu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gammu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/5 "2000-07-13T20:56:12Z")
I also vaguely remember from Anthony Burgess’ _Man of Nazareth_ a large “peg” which the victim straddles that supports his actual body weight, while the nails just immobilize his arms. Burgess also mentions that it had some mocking phallic significance as well. If it’s true, it’s pretty easy to see why it’s not depicted in religious artwork. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/6 "2000-07-13T21:01:51Z")
Cecil has addressed this: [Are stigmatics frauds because Jesus’ wounds were in the wrist?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/980417.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/7 "2000-07-13T21:02:24Z")
Hey! There’s a Cecil column on this, people! [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/980417.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/980417.html) “Are stigmatics frauds because Jesus’ wounds were in the wrist?” Cec states: > [@](#): > > The Romans crucified people by the boatload, but exactly how they went about it is unclear, since crucifixion was not the kind of thing you wrote instruction manuals for. The gospels describe wounds in Jesus’ hands, and most people (including most artists depicting the crucifixion) have assumed the nails went through the center of his palms. > > But some modern researchers have disputed this. The most enterprising was the French surgeon Pierre Barbet, who nailed up freshly amputated arms through the palms and tied weights to the other ends. He found that the nail tore through when the weight was increased to 88 pounds and the arm was given a good jerk. (Hey, anything for science.) Since a human body would exert substantially more force, he concluded that nailing through the palm was impractical. > > Barbet believed the wrist was a more likely location. After more experiments with nails and amputated arms he found that a nail could be driven readily through an anatomical area known as Destot’s space, located near where the base of the hand joins the wrist. Because Destot’s space is surrounded by the wrist bones, a nail there could easily support the weight of the body… > > Barbet’s hypothesis seemed to get a boost in 1968 when archaeologists in Jerusalem unearthed the first known skeleton of a crucifixion victim. The guy’s feet had been nailed to the cross sideways, through the heel rather than the arch, as is commonly depicted. More to the point, there was a scratch on one of the bones of the right forearm (the radius), as though from a nail. In the minds of many people this cinched the wrist crucifixion hypothesis… > > In the biblical archaeology game, however, nobody ever gets the last word. Among the objections raised: (1) In the Jerusalem crucifixion victim, the nail didn’t go through Destot’s space in the wrist bones, it went between the two bones of the forearm. (2) There might not have been a nail at all. Two later researchers claim that scratches and indentations are commonly found on ancient bones and have nothing to do with crucifixion (Zias and Sekeles, Israel Exploration Journal, 1985). They think the Jerusalem victim was tied to the cross with ropes. (3) Destot’s space, and for that matter the bones of the forearm, aren’t the only places you can nail a guy to make him stay up. In a 1989 issue of Bible Review, Frederick Zugibe, a medical examiner for Rockland County, New York, claims that there are at least two other possible nailing locations, one of which is on the palm. (It’s in the “thenar furrow,” the deep fold where the base of the thumb joins the hand–touch your thumb to the tip of your little finger to see it.) > > In short, we have no idea how Jesus was crucified, other than the fact that they nailed him somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![tcburnett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@tcburnett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tcburnett)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/8 "2000-07-13T21:04:05Z")
“Nail 'em up, I say! Nail some sense into 'em”. - old man chained to a dungeon wall - ‘The life of Brian’ The problem is that there is not much physical evidence. My guess is that, after the crucified person died, the family was allowed (or required) to take the body away (1) to make more cross space available and (2) to prevent stinking up the area too badly. Maybe after a person had been rescued once or twice the Romans would pound in a few miniature railroad spikes to discourage that sort of thing. As to where the nails, if any, were placed, Cecil has bestowed the answer upon us: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/980417.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/980417.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gammu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@Gammu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gammu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/9 "2000-07-13T21:04:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > **I get the impression that crucifiction was normally done by simply tying a person up – see the movie “Spartacus”, in which no one is nailed up.** Yes, but in “Xena: Warrior Princess” they very clearly use nails, (and those nail had to support plenty of weight, I might add ;)). ---
**Author:** ![tcburnett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@tcburnett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tcburnett)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/10 "2000-07-13T21:08:52Z")
I knew it! I run to the bathroom for five lousy minutes, RACE back to the computer trailing a whole roll of TP and two people have beaten me to the answer! I hate it when that happens. I think if I knock out the shower I’ll have room to put a terminal right next to the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/11 "2000-07-13T21:13:38Z")
Okay, s Xena has someone nailed up – so does “The Sword and the Sorceror” – a truly wonderful bad film, and one that steals pretty heavily from Robert E. Howard’s “Conan” stories, which also feature a crucifiction by nailing (Conan and the hero of TSATS, being Tough Guys, survive. Conan even pulls out his own nails). Hmmm… should I believe Xena/Conan/Sword or the heavily-researched Spartacus. Tough call. ---
**Author:** ![Gammu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@Gammu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gammu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/12 "2000-07-13T21:52:16Z")
This is getting a bit off topic, but Cecil’s answer didn’t cover one point about stigmata: The Bible says Jesus was pierced on his side, but doesn’t say _which_ side. The belly-wound appears in different places on different stigmatics, related to what is depicted in artwork within the churches the stigmatics attend. Shouldn’t all belly-wounds in stigmatics appear on the same side, wheteher it matches the art or not? I’m not sure if this is true, but it’s an interesting point. Even further off-topic to **Cal** : Are you saying _Xena: Warrior Princess_ isn’t an accurate portrayal of the **real** Xena’s life? \ Actually Stanley Kubrick is my favorite filmmaker and _Spartacus_ is a superb and generally authentic film but Kubrick himself has pointed out some innaccuracies in it. The movie was also edited to remove some objectionable scenes (censorship is such a harsh word). I understand this was mainly chopping off limbs and such, so I’m not sure if the script called for nailing during crucifixion it would have been filmed, and if it were filmed, whether it would have been shown. I’ve also heard that some of the homoeroticism between Crassus (Olivier) and Antoninus (Tony Curtis) was yanked (so to speak). I’m glad that 4 decades later the whims of a board of self-appointed protectors of public purity can’t arbitrarily decide what a director like Kubrick can show in his films. \ ---
**Author:** ![OldMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@OldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/13 "2000-07-13T22:01:01Z")
From the July/August issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine ([www.csicop.org](http://www.csicop.org)), in an article called ‘Stigmata: in Imitation of Christ.’ It refers to “…experiments with cadavers that supposedly show nailed hands could not support the weight of a body and would therefore tear away.” Jeez, some folks have really strange occupations. Crucifying cadavers? Who are these guys? And furthermore, “Skeletal remains have been discovered of only a single first-century crucifixion victim, a man known as Jehohanan. A scratch on the lower end of the right radius suggests a nail had penetrated between the radius and the ulna.” The article also describes how the foot bones show that a nail had been driven through the heels from the side. Stuff from the July/August issue wasn’t posted on CSICOP’s web site when I checked a couple of minutes ago, but this article might appear there eventually. While we’re on the subject, I recall reading about 100 years ago (and you wondered why I called myself OldMan?) that death by crucifixion is actually due to suffocation brought on by exhaustion. After a couple of days in that unnatural position, the chest muscles collapse and the hapless victim can no longer breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/14 "2000-07-13T22:29:02Z")
OldMan, from what I understand that was the typical method of death (the puncture wounds from the nails were still full of nail and didn’t bleed much). I don’t remember the specifics, but it went something like this: You hang on your arms for a while, forced to pull yourself up enough so your chest can expand. Your arms get tired and you sag, the new weight and position on your chest cavity makes it near impossible to breathe. You come close to passing out and the extra CO2 in the blood loosens the arm muscles enough to let you pull yourself up and breathe a few more times before the whole thing repeats. Death was generally from dehydration (however, Jesus was given water to drink from a wet rag poked at him via a hyssop stem if I recall) or in the most probably case of Jesus, the lungs eventually fill with fluid and you die that way. Note that when Jesus was pierced, both blood and water came out of the wound which lends to the idea that his lungs filled. As for if they were nailed or not, and where, I’ve heard the whole “The Hebrew word for hand includes the entire forearm” line before and it may well be true (since I’m not up on my ancient Hebrew). In any event, there’s no question that they nailed them in my mind, as I’ve read several accounts of finding buried or entombed crucifixion victims who had bits of wood mixed among the bones at the feet and wrist/hand area. I wish I could cite them for you all, but they were books from my old university library’s stacks and I don’t even recall the titles, much less a decent quote. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/15 "2000-07-13T23:03:54Z")
For the record: Yes, the Hebrew word _Yad_ refers to both hand and arm. Considering the massive similarites between the two languages, I’ll assume the same goes for Aramaic; I could look it up if you like. ---
**Author:** ![OldMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@OldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/16 "2000-07-14T02:28:44Z")
Jophiel, we must have read some of the same things. Your mention of CO2 and the lungs filling with fluid sounded familiar, but I can’t recall the references either. It would appear that death by crucifixion involves exhaustion, deyhdration, suffocation, and congestive heart failure. A pretty gruesome way to go, and for a healthy young man in the prime of life–Jesus was 33, wasn’t he?–it could take a loooong time. Or was 33 old in pre-Christian Palestine? Makes the electric chair and the rope look positively genteel. And people say the world isn’t getting better… As to where the nails went in…I don’t see that it matters much. We don’t really need to know that unless crucifixion becomes popular again as a method of execution, and some quick and easy experiments will soon settle that. I don’t know who those oddballs were who tested cadavers, but I found the reference: a book called A Doctor at Calvary, by Pierre Barbet, published in English translation (the original was French) by Image Books in NY in 1963. It’s not in the catalog at my local library, but a really big library might have it. ---
**Author:** ![mellonhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@mellonhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mellonhead)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/17 "2000-07-14T03:51:31Z")
I figured there would be some “Shroudies” (people who believe the Shroud of Turin is the real thing) in the forum, but I guess I’ll have to take this one… Early in the 80’s (if I remember correctly), the Catholic Church brought the Shroud out for a public viewing (I’m not sure of the particulars, but if anyone could help…). There was a documentary film made at the time called “Silent Witness”. In the film, there were quite a few forensic pathologists, etc, who got into the act and did an “autopsy” on large photos of the Shroud. The conclusion seemed to be that even though the image on the Shroud may or may not have been the image of Christ - the guy did not die from his wounds…he suffocated. If you nail the hands at the wrist (between the bones of the forearm) so the weight of the person hangs on the actual wrist bones - a person could actually hang there and not fall off the “cross”. Problem was that there was an issue of the person dying too soon of suffocation (try hanging from a jungle-gym by the hands with your arms spread apart and you’ll find out what I mean); you’d ruin all the fun of a brutal, lingering death. To solve the problem, you could nail the person’s feet on a pedestal that angles down slightly. It won’t feel great; their feet are nailed there, the process would take longer, and they’d eventually die from their own weight overcoming the slant on the pedestal. It could take a couple of days for people to die this way - nice, long, brutal, and SLOW. If there was a need to clean up the execution site before the person died - the Romans would just break the condemned legs (Xena style)- they wouldn’t be able to support their weight anymore and would suffocate in a matter of minutes. Just to keep in mind how much of a precision operation the figure on the Shroud of Turin is: the doctors concluded that they probably had to nail and re-nail the wrists until they got it perfect, otherwise the poor guy would have fallen off the cross all together ☹ ---
**Author:** ![OldMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@OldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/18 "2000-07-14T06:58:50Z")
The Shroud of Turin has been scientifically proven by radiocarbon dating to be a fraud. It’s not old enough to be Christ’s burial shroud. Lately, though, the story’s been going around that it’s actually the burial shroud of Jacques de Molay. It’s about the right age. And for those of you who don’t know who Jaques de Molay was, check out the history of the crusader knights, particularly the Templars. There’s a lot of stuff around about them having custody of the Holy Grail and various other artifacts, and stories about the risen Christ visiting western Europe and the Americas. I don’t have the background to know if there’s any historical validity to that or if it’s all mystic nonsense. Can anyone enlighten us? Or confuse us more? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/19 "2000-07-14T12:27:40Z")
33 was not “old” in those times. Don’t confuse a shorter average life expectancy with a more rapid aging process. The shorter life expectancy in those days was due to deaths at young ages from disease or other mishap, especially infant deaths. But a person who was age 33 two millenia ago would be the same in terms of aging process as a person age 33 today, generally speaking. (Exceptions might be that things like lack of dental or vision care, and other treatment of non-fatal disease might have been more ravaging then. So the person of age 33 then might have had fewer or less healthy teeth, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478/20 "2000-07-14T13:00:38Z")
Weird. There was a grusome robbery/murder in NYC where the male had his hands nailed to a board. Now someone will claim reading these Boards leads to this type of thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-greek-aramaic-and-crucifixions/25478.md?page=2)