# Concerning Lazarus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733 "2008-03-09T16:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/1 "2008-03-09T16:36:08Z")
In [John 11:1-44](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2011:1-44), the topic is the resurrection of Lazarus. Now, in verses 23-25, this exchange takes place: [QUOTE=Bible] 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” [/QUOTE] Was there a common belief among Jews at that time that there would be a last day where the dead would rise up? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/2 "2008-03-09T16:49:50Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] In [John 11:1-44](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2011:1-44), the topic is the resurrection of Lazarus. Now, in verses 23-25, this exchange takes place: Was there a common belief among Jews at that time that there would be a last day where the dead would rise up? Just curious. [/QUOTE] Well there is this passage from the old testament, Daniel 12: 2.3 > [@](#): > > Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/3 "2008-03-09T16:52:14Z")
[Isaiah 26:19](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2026:19;&version=31;) > [@](#): > > But your dead will live; > their bodies will rise. > You who dwell in the dust, > wake up and shout for joy. > Your dew is like the dew of the morning; > the earth will give birth to her dead. [Daniel 12:2](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:2;&version=31;) > [@](#): > > Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/4 "2008-03-09T16:53:16Z")
My thanks to the both of you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/5 "2008-03-09T18:48:45Z")
In the time of Jesus, the concept of a future resurrection was a matter of [debate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Views_of_Pharisees_and_Sadducees) between the Pharisees, who espoused it, and the Sadducees, who rejected it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/6 "2008-03-09T19:11:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In the time of Jesus, the concept of a future resurrection was a matter of [debate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Views_of_Pharisees_and_Sadducees) between the Pharisees, who espoused it, and the Sadducees, who rejected it. [/QUOTE] **Brain Glutton** is right on the money here. A passage echoed in each of the three Synoptic Gospels, and two passages in Acts, allude to this, the second Acts passage making it explicit: > [@](#): > > _Matthew 22:23_: > That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. > > _Mark 12:18_: > Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. > > _Luke 20:27_: > Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. > > _Acts 23:6_: > Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead.” > > _Acts 23:8_: > (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) [all NIV] Intriguing in regard to the resurrection of Lazarus (who by the way went on, according to early tradition, to become the first Bishop of Masilia[Marseilles]) is the sole time in one of Jesus’s parables where a character is given a personal name: Lazarus, in Luke 16:19-31, which culminates in this telling verse: > [@](#): > > "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ " (Luke 16:3, NIV) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/7 "2008-03-10T03:50:09Z")
The curious thing is that, although the Pharisees ultimately carried the day and became the progenitors of Rabbinical Judaism, the concept of a morally relevant personal afterlife has played only a minor role in Judaism ever since – at least, compared to Christianity and Islam. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/8 "2008-03-10T04:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The curious thing is that, although the Pharisees ultimately carried the day and became the progenitors of Rabbinical Judaism, \*\*the concept of a morally relevant personal afterlife has played only a minor role in Judaism ever since \*\* – at least, compared to Christianity and Islam. [/QUOTE] Really? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/9 "2008-03-10T04:54:30Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Really? [/QUOTE] I would say that that was accurate. While there are adherants of Judaism who do hold a view of the afterlife and others who do not, there has never been a strong movement to “settle” the question and no Jewish theology of which I am aware makes “salvation” an important theological point. Regardless whether a devout Jew does or does not believe in an afterlife, they would express the imperative of behaving according to God’s will as simply the need to respond to the goodness and righteousness of God, not as a requirement in order to “get to heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/10 "2008-03-10T13:59:51Z")
When my later mother passed away she was in a relationship with a Jew, who misses her terribly. He has told me that while Jews believe in an afterlife, it is different from the Christian afterlife; in particular, he cannot expect to be “re-united” with Mom in the hereafter. I’m not clear on why, however. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/11 "2008-03-10T14:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] When my later mother passed away she was in a relationship with a Jew, who misses her terribly. He has told me that while Jews believe in an afterlife, it is different from the Christian afterlife; in particular, he cannot expect to be “re-united” with Mom in the hereafter. I’m not clear on why, however. [/QUOTE] I suspect this is not theologically sound, not within any branch of Judaism I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/12 "2008-03-10T16:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I would say that that was accurate. While there are adherants of Judaism who do hold a view of the afterlife and others who do not, there has never been a strong movement to “settle” the question and no Jewish theology of which I am aware makes “salvation” an important theological point. Regardless whether a devout Jew does or does not believe in an afterlife, they would express the imperative of behaving according to God’s will as simply the need to respond to the goodness and righteousness of God, not as a requirement in order to “get to heaven.” [/QUOTE] Tom, There is a very good reason why there is no Jewish theology of “salvation:” we don’t maintain that there is a need to be saved from anything. From my understanding (if I’m correct, please forgive and feel free to correct), the theology of most (all?) Christian branches includes the doctrine of Original Sin and that all people are doomed to punishment in the afterlife because of it, unless they accept Jesus as their savior. Since Judaism does not recognize OS, we maintain that people get into heaven (or fail to do so) based on their own merits (Or lack thereof). That being said, Orthodox Judaism does maintain a belief in a personal afterall. In addition, most of the classical sources (Talmud, etc.) while being vague on the details, do indeed express the concept of a personal afterlife. You are correct, however, in that the main imperative to keeping the commandments is because God commanded us to, not necessarily to get into heaven. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/13 "2008-03-10T17:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] When my later mother passed away she was in a relationship with a Jew, who misses her terribly. He has told me that while Jews believe in an afterlife, it is different from the Christian afterlife; in particular, he cannot expect to be “re-united” with Mom in the hereafter. I’m not clear on why, however. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what branch of Judaism this man belonged to. In short, while there are traditions within Judaism as to what is required to “get into heaven,” there are very few, if any sources, that describe what “heaven” is and how it operates. I don’t know of any Jewish source that would say what he says (notwithstanding the fact that the relationship itself [assuming your mother wasn’t Jewish] isn’t permitted under Jewish law to begin with). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/14 "2008-03-10T17:12:43Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] I’m not sure what branch of Judaism this man belonged to. In short, while there are traditions within Judaism as to what is required to “get into heaven,” there are very few, if any sources, that describe what “heaven” is and how it operates. I don’t know of any Jewish source that would say what he says (notwithstanding the fact that the relationship itself [assuming your mother wasn’t Jewish] isn’t permitted under Jewish law to begin with). Zev Steinhardt [/QUOTE] Eh? They weren’t married. Did not Solomon himself have gentile concubines? (And wives, too, come to think of it.) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/concerning-lazarus/440733/15 "2008-03-10T17:17:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Eh? They weren’t married. Did not Solomon himself have gentile concubines? (And wives, too, come to think of it.) [/QUOTE] Nonetheless, the relationship is still forbidden under Jewish law. Traditional interpretations on Solomon insist that these wives converted. (Yeah, I know it sounds like apologetics…) Zev Steinhardt